Simple
Living
From: Taraka dasa
cowz@jc-net.com
Sent: 26 November 1999 16:59
Subject: Are you living simply?
[Text 2809722 from COM]
Dear Prabhus:
Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am looking for devotees who are into simple living/self sufficiency. I
would like to contact those who are practically pursuing such a lifestyle. I
have met about one dozen such persons in my life but only a couple have been
devotees. And sometimes I feel a little bit like I'm crying in the
wilderness. I would like to correspond with such persons to keep my self
enlivened and also to explore the possibilities of like-minded devotees
forming a community devoted to plain living and high thinking. Here are some
elements of what is and is not simple living according to my vision:
1. Energy Independence
A. No electricity or you make your own
B. A $15,000.00 PV utility intertie system doesn't count
2. Food Production
A. You grow a significant portion of your food including some grains or
dried beans
B. A few summer tomato plants don't really count
C. You can, dry, root cellar, etc.
3. Residence
A. Are you located in a rural area?
B. Did you build your own house?
C. Is it designed with self sufficiency in mind; heating, lighting, etc.?
4. Finances
A. Do you need just a little cash to live comfortably?
B. Is your debt minimal or are you dependent on credit?
If you meet even one or two of these criteria or know someone who does,
especially someone who lives in the continental United States, please get in
touch with me. I would love to hear from you, trade ideas, make plans, etc.
My snail mail address is:
Acarya dasa
RR 1 Box 835E
Port Royal, PA 17082
Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope this meets you in good
health and I beg to remain,
Your servant,
Acarya dasa
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From: Madhava Gosh (das)
ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 26 November 1999 17:31
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2809794 from COM]
1. Energy
Independence
A. No electricity or you make your own
B. A $15,000.00 PV utility intertie system doesn't count
Dependent, but losing
electric would only be an inconvenience. (no COM, etc.)
2. Food Production
A. You grow a significant portion of your food including some grains or
dried beans
B. A few summer tomato plants don't really count
C. You can, dry, root cellar, etc.
We both dry, root cellar,
and can tomato sauce(30 gallons of paste tomatoes with skins and seeds
removed, then cooked down by 1/2). A few beans this last summer.
3. Residence
A. Are you located in a rural area?
B. Did you build your own house?
C. Is it designed with self sufficiency in mind; heating, lighting, etc.?
Yes, rural area. Renovated
existing house. Heat with some passive solar, mostly wood. Lots of day
lighting, have an attached greenhouse for starting plants, root cellar,
gravity flow spring water for part of garden irrigation. Organic gardening
techniques only.
4. Finances
A. Do you need just a little cash to live comfortably?
B. Is your debt minimal or are you dependent on credit?
Property paid for, carry
some credit card debt, probably use more than a little cash. Have a part
time job and small real estate investments to finance gardening habit.
If you meet even one
or two of these criteria or know someone who does, especially someone who
lives in the continental United States, please get in touch with me. I
would love to hear from you, trade ideas, make plans, etc.
My snail mail address is:
Acarya dasa
RR 1 Box 835E
Port Royal, PA 17082
Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope this meets you in good
health and I beg to remain,
Your servant,
Acarya dasa
Couldn't we communicate on
the Practical Varnashram conference? Then others could benefit from the
exchange.
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From: Premananda Gaura (das)
JPS (Alachua, FL - USA)
Premananda.Gaura.JPS@bbt.se
Sent: 26 November 1999 23:52
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2810539 from COM]
Hari bol AGTSP
there are many devotees
families in alachua area that are in to this wonderful system, hand pump,
etc, specially with the W T K fenomena some are really fired up you can
contact example Stoka krsna ,das or akinchana krsna das ,
your servant
premananda goura das
-------------------------------
From: Carol
DGilsen@aol.com
Sent: 29 November 1999 06:07
Subject: Re: Are you living simply? Herbs for health
[Text 2815755 from COM]
Haribol Guys
I was thumbing through the most recent volume of Mother Earth News.
That publication the 1970s through the 1985s was full of the most wonderful
back to the land for newbies I have ever read. I strongly suggest it for any
one even thinking about starting a self sufficient farm. This months tasty
tidbit was three pages of human health conditions and the conventional
medicinal cure and its cost and then the herbal treatment and its cost. If
you are an herbalist or interested in a cash crop that article is alone
could get you into self sufficiency.
Most public libraries also carry that magazine and you could photocopy that
section. If you don't want to buy.
Carol
-----------------------------------------------------
From: Srirama (das) ACBSP
Srirama.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 03 December 1999 21:05
Subject: RE: Are you living simply?
[Text 2829114 from COM]
Hare Krishna,
You have identified the problem here: simple living, like so many issues
currently confronting ISKCON, is a lot more complicated than if looks.
There are two basic rationale for adopting simply living standards:
1) Simplifying our personal lives so we can have more time available to
cultivate our Krishna consciousness. In this regard, we may actually find
that our lives become more complicated as a result of trying to simplify.
2) Helping to develop a culture of knowledge that, while entailing great
sacrifice for ourselves, will help future generations to actually attain a
simple life style.
3) Preaching by example that if one truly wants this life-style, it can be
done with presently available tools and knowledge.
4) Organize rural communities that can shelter the general population, if
and when our technological society implodes due to its own actions.
It is, therefore, important that we decide for ourselves and our communities
which of these goals we are attempting to accomplish at the present.
Ideally, we could try to do everything at once; but in practice, it's
probably more than we can reasonably hope to achieve in the short run. Lack
of clear focus on our short and mid-range goals has repeatedly undermined
our attempts for agricultural self-sufficiency.
I hope to address these points in depth in a future article.
Your servant,
Sri Rama das
-------------------------------
From: Carol
DGilsen@aol.com
Sent: 04 December 1999 22:59
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2831373 from COM]
Hari Krishna
It has been my experience that the people who speak with such wistful
longing for a simpler existence have never had to experience the brutal
reality of it. One of my best friends is an 84 year old red Indian woman.
She heard me lamenting about life being so complicated now days. She snorted
with derision, ha you white people are never happy with your life always
looking for "simpler " ways. For your information The "good old days " were
terrible old days. The streets of most cites were mud all winter, the
streets smelled of dung and coal and filth. My little brothers died of
terrible diseases that are now curable for under five dollars a shot. My
mother died of consumption (tubercles) coughing up blood. We shivered all
winter and sweated all summer. We worked long and hard just to have enough
food to develop malnutrition from our efforts. You want to go back to that?
You guys are full of self righteous hog wash. Grab the good and keep it
close. Ignore or fight the evil and bad stuff. Deal with what can't be
changed and be done with it for Gods sake! Pretty wise old lady huh! I agree
if there is a PV system I can afford why not use it. I never did see any
advantage to lifting when I can get a pulley or a fork lift to do it for me.
I think we get into this scripture slinging mode and think that is the only
way to go. Prepare for the worst pray for the best. I applaud every attempt
to live simply. But while I really could live off the land eating berries
and drinking out of rain water puddles, I don't. I like a cozy warm bed I
like printed books (as opposed to hand written) I like electricity and solar
panels and air line travel and banana splits and Ice cream and all the
wonderful comforts of modern life. Like Radhe Krishna says the simple life
may be carrots from the grocery store. The simple life should be in your
heart. Do what you can and what you must but not what "THEY SAY YOU SHOULD!"
If you circumstances are such that a flowerpot in the window is all you can
manage then by all means do it. And have the best darn flowers that there
have ever been, growing in that one flower pot! Life and circumstances shape
our life's but we control the direction and the actions. Blossom where you
are planted and make the world richer for your existence.
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Samba (das) SDG
(Mauritius)
Samba.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 05 December 1999 13:30
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2832532 from COM]
Hari Krishna
It has been my experience that the people who speak with such wistful
longing for a simpler existence have never had to experience the brutal
reality of it.
It is true, there are
many.
One of my best
friends is an 84 year old red Indian woman. She heard me lamenting about
life being so complicated now days. She snorted with derision, ha you
white people are never happy with your life always looking for "simpler "
ways. For your information The "good old days " were terrible old days.
It is true that the cities
were all muddy. But why go to the city? The red Indians had a life
expectancy of about 40 years I have heard. I have lived for months in Tipis
in the UK (surprise!). On days with no wind the smoke just hangs in the
lodge, and the rain falls right in through the smoke flaps. It is damp, your
eyes sting, you cough etc...etc. They were nomads, and ate a diet of meat,
and wild greens. It is no wonder they had problems and short life, despite
their reputedly evolved philosophical leanings.
In terms of technology, in South India there is an old British architect,
who stayed on in India after Independence, being encouraged by Gandhi, as he
was an expert on low cost housing using local materials. He often laments
that there was a wealth of research going on as regards building with brick:
arches, domes, etc, that stopped with the advent of short lived cement
concrete (it falls apart much more quickly that brickwork, is hell to
demolish, and comes from huge terrible industries). Building in brick or
stone was done for thousands of years, by people who figured many wonderful
ways of working with material natures forces, to craft incredible edifices.
Cement concrete flies in the face of natures laws, and its ugrakarmic nature
is ever present.
There is nothing wrong with innovation and simple technology. Prabhupada
says that we are not against simple machines, as long as they do not create
unemployment.
He argues that castor lamps are so simple, grow the castor, make a little
lamp from some clay, add a cotton wick, and viola...light! The electrical
alternative requires huge industry to maintain, ugra karma. OK so they are
not exactly like halogen lights, so then go to bed early. You can easily
chant by lamp light in the early morning, in fact it is very nice, and then
read when the sun comes up.
In south India I witnessed simple local people who grew the simplest rice,
and lived almost poverty stricken lives in dark damp hovel-like mud and
grass huts. They were happy enough, but they did not need to live in such
poor conditions. For a start they lived in an area where you can grow
valuable spices. Their problem was that they were just unable to innovate
with what they had. Their lives could have been so much better, with a
little intelligence added to their living situations. Of course they had no
idea, so they just accepted the way they were. But with some improvements
their health could have been maintained more easily.
Living simply does not have to mean accepting poverty.
My little brothers
died of terrible diseases that are now curable for under five dollars a
shot. My mother died of consumption (tubercles) coughing up blood.
If one eats healthily, and
one worships god, disease can be less. Of course if one did some terrible
things in his last life, he will have to suffer, but Krsna does take care.
He does love us, and will make our lives bearable if we trust in him, and
hanker for him.
We shivered all
winter and sweated all summer. We worked long and hard just to have enough
food to develop malnutrition from our efforts. You want to go back to
that?
It is not like everyone in
the world had to go through that. The redskins time had come, and they went
through terrible suffering at the hands of the self righteous white man.
The simple life
should be in your heart. Do what you can and what you must but not what
"THEY SAY YOU SHOULD!"
That is very important. We
should enter into anything with our eyes wide open, not because of pressure.
Although simple life may be more complicated in the beginning, as we have to
learn so much in a short time, not even knowing where our teachers are (of
course we DO have Carol on com, thanks be to our wonderful Blue Lord), we
should understand that the benefits of doing so are well worth it.
Surrendering to the world as it is, makes us dependant. We are ISKCON but we
are dependant on the governments, we are parasites on society, as opposed to
being a positive alternative to it as Prabhupada wanted.
The thing with simple living which is MOST important is that it is all based
on relying on the systems Krsna has created. It means tuning into systems of
life, and utilizing them to provide all our needs. This will situate us
firmly in the mode of goodness, and seeing the way in which Krsna's
wonderful creation provides our every need, with only a little stewardship
from us will help us understand our actual position in this world.
So initially it will be very complex, and even mind boggling. We need to
have patience. But I know from my own experience, that it is only ignorance,
that frightens us. It does not take long to learn a few basic skills. The
difficulty is that we have to learn many skills all at once. So I think the
trick is to get yourself into a situation where you can gradually wean
yourself onto it.
Look at the Amish. They were in America, at the same time as those injuns
were being decimated on the west coast, yet they have been living solid
comfortable, yet simple lives ever since. They knew how much technology to
accept, and what to reject in their quest for God consciousness.
Prabhupada says that a balanced varnasrama system is what we need. The
injuns were like an abandoned tribe of ksatria warriors. I have heard that
some tribes did cultivate grain. I wonder if they were in a better position
than the buffalo hunters?
Your Servant
Samba das
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From: Madhava Gosh (das)
ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 06 December 1999 18:18
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2836033 from COM]
I have lived for
months in Tipis in the UK (surprise!). On days with no wind the smoke just
hangs in the lodge, and the rain falls right in through the smoke flaps.
It is damp, your eyes sting, you cough etc...etc.
You needed a tipi guru. i
know people who have lived very comfortably in tipis, but it is a more
complicated art form of life, knowing how to manipulate the smoke flaps,
inner liner etc.
I remember one Deity kitchen in New Vrindaban that has terrible to work in
because of the smoke in the woodcookstoves. To this day, they still cook
with gas, thanks to that experience, but when I got my wood cookstove, and
studied the correct installation, I could immediately see what the problem
and been, and that it was correctable.
Prabhupada says that
a balanced varnasrama system is what we need. The injuns were like an
abandoned tribe of ksatria warriors. I have heard that some tribes did
cultivate grain. I wonder if they were in a better postion than the
buffalo hunters?
Your Servant
Samba das
Actually, the farmer
indians got wiped out easier. The nomadic vision we have is of the tribes
who were able to survive through mobility and hunting. The tipi was the
summer home , the RV, of the tribes who wintered in the forests, and who
were driven out onto the plains as "civilization" spread.
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Samba (das) SDG
(Mauritius)
Samba.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 09 December 1999 15:08
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2844128 from COM]
You needed a tipi
guru. i know people who have lived very comfortably in tipis, but it is a
more complicated art form of life, knowing how to manipulate the smoke
flaps, inner liner etc.
Can you recommend anyone?
(nah, only kidding). Actually it did cross my mind to build one right now,
as I need to move onto our land as soon as possible, we have already had one
theft up there (it was only a small plastic bin, they emptied the rotting
veggie scraps and made off with the bin, but that was all there was anyway).
But there is no way a tipi would survive a cyclone. Actually the problem I
had with the smoke was more to do with damp wood. I remember at other times
with a good blaze going, and a canopy (I forget the name) stretched between
the anchor rope and down behind the lining, it was really pleasant.
Fantastic dwellings tipis. I was trying to figure out why the Indians had
such a short lifespan (white men with rifles not withstanding). Really its
true if someone needs to move into the great outdoors in a hurry, with a
minimum of cost, but a maximum of comfort, a tipi is a really good choice.
I might make what they call a 'bender' in Ireland, which might be similar to
a wikkiup in Red Indian lore. Its basically a dome or tunnel like structure
made from willow or hazel or other flexible saplings, of about 15 to 20 feet
long, which are stuck into the ground, and wrapped around each other to
create a kind of skeletal form (you can make a sweat lodge in the same way,
but smaller). Lay a tarpaulin over it, and install a small stove made from a
'can' or milk churn or something, and you have an instant cozy home. I used
to drape a carpet or fabric 'hanging' over the poles before putting the
canvas, to provide some colorful 'wallpaper'. These structures are much more
stable than a tipi, smokeflaps would be useless in a cyclone, and would have
to be closed. The main drawback with a bender is that it looks like a huge
ugly slug, compared to the elegance of a well made lodge, but beauty isn't
everything! I am still trying to find an old bus which would be the easiest
solution for now. Lets see.
I remember one Deity
kitchen in New Vrindaban that has terrible to work in because of the smoke
in the woodcookstoves. To this day, they still cook with gas, thanks to
that experience, but when I got my wood cookstove, and studied the correct
installation, I could immediately see what the problem and been, and that
it was correctable.
Yes a vent pipe from
outside near the air feed of the stove can be good, and also to make sure
that the chimney or flue is long enough. We had a lot of stoves in Ireland.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ananda Maya (dd) SDG
(Derrylin - Northern Ireland)
Ananda.Maya.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 16 December 1999 07:27
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2861850 from COM]
Haribol prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP
Being off line for a while and there's a whole pletra of stuff to catch up
on. Seen the mention of 'benders' and stoves. Thought you might like to know
about the gas cylinder type which Aniruddha made for us last year. Actually
a few devotees made them. We had single 'Calor' yellow, and double ones
which had ovens in them. Very simple to do, one day's work with a welder if
you've got a cylinder. The rounded top is cut out for a door. The 'stove'
lies horizontally and then you make two 'pin flap' hinges for the door. He
mounted ours on feet, and at the time we were in a mobile. There's great
heat from them. Also Bh. John used one of the larger red cylinders and put a
small one in the middle of it, and made an oven model. We ran flue pipes
from the back of them vertically, and ours had a steel flat plate welded on
top which you could put a pot on. So you can heat water or do some cooking
on it as well. I suppose anything like a gas cylinder would work, and I
suppose in a 'bender' situation, even a mini-stove could be made by using a
smaller cylinder. The reason the gas bottles are good is because they're
readily available here and very heavy construction therefore durable. We're
in our cottage now, but we use the stove in the mobile still when Gaura
comes home to visit. He just returned briefly before the marathon having
spent a 'year in the sun' being only in Europe for the good summer weather
and the rest of the time in India and Africa respectively. He found that it
was great as it was his only source of heat in there. So I'm supposing that
you might have access to them since they're all over India as well.
ys
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Samba (das) SDG
(Mauritius)
Samba.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 17 December 1999 15:09
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2865453 from COM]
Haribol prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP
Being off line for a while and there's a whole pletra of stuff to catch up
on. Seen the mention of 'benders' and stoves. Thought you might like to
know about the gas cyclinder type which Aniruddha made for us last year.
Wow, great idea, gas
cylinder stoves, excellent. I got the gist of the design, is there anyway
you could get a photo of one, and scan it into a computer, so we can get
some technical tips first hand?
It would be especially helpful to show the welder, as people often grasp
things a lot quicker with a picture.
The flat plate you welded on, was it just welded on top of the curved
cylinder side, or was the cylinder wall cut away, and then replaced by a
flat plate?
Did anyone make a back boiler in one?
Thanks a lot for sharing that.
YS Samba das
--------------------------------------
From: Taraka dasa
cowz@jc-net.com
Sent: 20 December 1999 22:12
Subject: Are you living simply?
[Text 2873317 from COM]
Hare Krsna
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond on the topic "Are
you living simply". However, now I would like to clarify my original purpose
in entering this forum. Although all the topics of discussion;lamp oil,
herbs, composting, etc. are interesting , I had a very specific purpose in
mind. I want to find people, especially families, with an interest and
experience in plain living, that would like to start a community
specifically devoted to that lifestyle. I see Samba Prabhu in Mauritius,
Madhava Gosh in West Virginia, and a few others scattered about the US and
the world. I believe however that what is needed is to bring these few
serious persons together in one place. Otherwise simple living that can
last, be passed on to future generations and expanded will be difficult or
impossible to develop. So I am submitting, not a topic for discussion but a
call for practical implementation. To learn to grow food or make a lamp is
relatively easy but to bring 5 or 10 families together to cooperatively live
simply seems near impossible, but to me it seems necessary in order to do it
properly.
I will answer e-mails but would appreciate snail-mail from interested
persons.
Acarya dasa
RD 1 Box 835-E
Port Royal PA 17082
Thank you. Your servant
Acarya dasa
--------------------------------------------------
From: Noelene Hawkins
niscala99@hotmail.com
Sent: 22 December 1999 03:25
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2876136 from COM]
Haribol, Acarya this is
very nice to hear!!!
Its exactly what we're trying to do here in Australia. I am presently just
moved to a place without electricity or running water and loving it, but I
think the devotee who owns the land still wants to keep his car and
resultantly cash-crop. I still admire their efforts in the right direction,
they've only had the land 6 months, but I would love to be part of a farm,
where all SP's instructions are being implemented. I mean that the goal is
that way. I think it would be very powerful preaching.
Topmost in mind is- what country were you thinking of? We would only be
attracted to a warm climate. Never seen snow, never want to, so sorry about
laying on conditions, but I know my limitations,
ys, niscala
Hare Krsna
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond on the topic "Are
you living simply". However, now I would like to clarify my original
purpose in entering this forum. Although all the topics of discussion;
lamp oil, herbs, composting, etc. are interesting , I had a very specific
purpose in mind. I want to find people, especially families, with an
interest and experience in plain living, that would like to start a
community specifically devoted to that lifestyle. I see Samba Prabhu in
Mauritius, Madhava Gosh in West Virginia, and a few others scattered about
the US and the world. I believe however that what is needed is to bring
these few serious persons together in one place. Otherwise simple living
that can last, be passed on to future generations and expanded will be
difficult or impossible to develop. So I am submitting, not a topic for
discussion but a call for practical implementation. To learn to grow
food or make a lamp is relatively easy but to bring 5 or 10 families
together to cooperatively live simply seems near impossible, but to
me it seems necessary in order to do it properly.
I will answer e-mails but would appreciate snail-mail from interested
persons.
Acarya dasa
RD 1 Box 835-E
Port Royal PA 17082
Thank you. Your servant
Acarya dasa
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From: Ananda Maya (dd)
SDG (Derrylin - Northern Ireland)
Ananda.Maya.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 22 December 1999 09:32
Subject: Re: Are you living simply?
[Text 2876691 from COM]
Haribol Samba prabhu,
PAMHO AGTSP
I don't think that they cut the cylinder round side before putting on the
plate. Since most of the shops will close this week, I could try to scan a
rough (very rough) sketch of the finished stove. I think that if you try
to com Ani at Govindadwipa he might be a better man for technical
descriptions, but I'll send what I can. Hope everythings going well
ys
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Samba (das) SDG
(Mauritius)
Samba.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 22 December 1999 11:53
Subject: Are you living simply?
[Text 2876940 from COM]
I want to find
people, especially families, with an interest and experience in plain
living, that would like to start a community specifically devoted to
that lifestyle.
About a year ago I wrote
to devotees all over the world with the very same idea, and could not find
a practical situation. So I came to Mauritius. I would love to be part of
a larger project, but where and with who? Those that can do something,
generaly are already doing, and very few have the funds to just pick up
and move somewhere else. A year ago I tried, but now to move elsewhere
would be impossible as I have sunk whatever meagre funds I have into a
project here.
Still If someone got Bill Gates or someone to fund a community and could
afford to fly us all over, and give us all the materials to get up to
scratch fast, then I would be well into it. Simple living is all I want to
do, the simpler the better.
If anything comes up. Drop me a line.
YS Samba das
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kesava Sakhi (dd)
JPS (California - USA)
Kesava.Sakhi.JPS@pamho.net
Sent: 29 February 2000 21:36
Subject: One cow per acre per family possible?
Dear Prabhus:
PAMHO, AGTSP, and Hare Krishna. I want to share some info about cow
protection to dispel some mis-information.
First, I come from a village in Gujarat in India. My village was situated
near two rivers. There was plenty of public pasture land that was used by
all people for grazing their cows, buffalos, goats, lambs etc. For a
village of 1000 people there were at least 1000 cows, buffalos, bulls, and
oxens. Plus there were at least 1000 goats and sheeps. The pasture land
was very rich in soil. The rain in the area was quite good even though it
only rained during four months of the monsoon. The floods enriched the
pastures plus pasture itself retains moisture. Thus pastures provided
enough grass for 8 months of the year for all animals. Then for four
months of the summer sheeps and goats still used to go out for grazing in
the pasture. The cows and buffalos were maintained by other fodder from
farms during the summer and/or from some harvested grass from private
grass farms.
Milk and ghee were very cheap. Buttermilk was given out free to all the
people of the village who did not have cow or buffalo giving milk. Goat
and lamb owners used to drink milk of goats and lambs. The hairs of goats
and lambs were used to make special blankets for warmth. These blankets
last 20 years even when used in ruff way in villages. In 1950s a man used
to come in the morning and evening to my house and he will milk our cow or
buffalo. His pay was 1/2 ruppee/month - roughly for 30 hours of work he
was getting 1/2 ruppee.
So it was a self supporting operation and sharing what you have with
others free or in exchange of some labor. Rarely money was exchanged.
Now FYI, a cow or buffalo has roughly life span of 20 years. At age 5 or
so a cow starts bearing a calf. A cow may deliver between 5 to 8
offspring. When a cow gives birth to a offspring then she also starts
giving milk for a year or so. Generally during the first 6 months after
the delivery a cow does not come into heat. Cow only is taken to a bull
when it comes to heat. If a cow is not in heat a bull will not even touch
it even though they may be freely grazing the land together. In this sense
the procreation in animal species is extremely controlled by the nature
unlike us wild human beings claiming to be better. So overall in a time
span of two years a cow will give milk for a year and one offspring.
After age 15, a cow stops having offspring and hence giving milk. So
roughly speaking, you are maintaining a cow or calf during first five
years and last five years of it's life without getting any thing in
return. During middle 10 years she gives milk for at least half of the
time and bull or oxen is used for agricultural labor from age of 5 and
almost until their end of life.
Now some cows and bulls may die from natural causes, like snake bite,
eating too much green plants of certain types at the beginning of the
monsoon.
Above I said: "So roughly speaking, you are maintaining a cow or calf
during first five years and last five years of it's life without getting
any thing in return."
This is the most bogus claim we make, including us so called devotees. The
whole mentality of the human being is that I am the lord of all that I
survey. Only Lord Krishna is the owner and maintainer of every thing. Why
then we are owed any returns and by whom?
The Hindus in villages were living in very simple way for thousands of
years and their life was woven around farming and cattle. There was no
slaughter house any where. People used to keep old animals until their
death.
Indira Gandhi wants to blame the Hindus but she does not want to accept
her part of the responsibility as a leader of the nation. Why did she not
closed down the slaughter houses? That was within her power. Srila
Prabhupada said it was Krishna who took her out when her nonsense son was
forcing people into family planning.
The idea that 1% give milk and you have to maintain other 99 cows for
nothing is totally inaccurate. This shows how little we know. Keep buying
on more and more land is not the end less alternative. There is limited
amount of land. It also shows our ownership mentality. Within the limited
natural setting all animals must be allowed to live - not just the cows.
It is easy to blame the Hindus. But what is the record of so called
devotees who are very proud to say that we are not Hindus but we are
Krishna Bhaktas? How are their cows doing?
What has happened during last 50 years in India is terrible. India is
progressing and joining the ranks of the industrial nations but the vedic
culture is being slaughtered left and right, in slow but sure way. The
population of Hindus have been assaulted by the process of slow
desensitization by the movies, radios, and now by television.
As for my village, the repeated droughts during last 30 years have driven
away new generation to cities to work in diamond polishing industry in
Surat, Gujarat. The whole area that used to be wealthy in cattle riches is
now poor in that respect and many other respects as well.
The population shift due to industrialization and droughts are having its
ugly effect on how the people live and behave. Still, the shifted
population is at least vegetarian but prone to get affected by the vices
of eating eggs, chicken, fish, meat and drinking as things are changing in
India.
Indians are joining the ranks of the mlechhas and yavans in record numbers
without knowing that they are doing so. What 1000 year of Muslim rule
could not do and what the British soldiers, priests, and East India
Company could not do, is taking place without firing a single shot and
without establishing a single church. India has changed a lot in last 50
years.
However, Srila Prabhupada has said that the vedic culture can be revived
in India very easily. The question is who will do it? PETA or RSS or US or
who else?
My family had only two acre land. So I know that One cow and one acre land
is possible only if there is enough rain. That is where the test is - the
rain is the result of yagna - yagnat bhavati parjanyo, parjanyat anna
sambhavam. If we are Krishna Conscious then things are possible.
Otherwise, padam padam ca vipadam - difficulty at every step - despite our
valiant efforts to achieve comforts.
Again, I say that for thousands of years Vedic Sanskriti flourished in
villages of India. People lived simply and allowed other living entities
to live also. What you see in India today is not what India was 100 years
ago. So one cow and one acre land is possible.
The danger to the ecology of the world is not due to increasing population
of other species but it is due to the varnashankar population of the so
called human beings. We claim to have all rights and freedoms. That is the
problem. We have to learn to live in the spirit of Isa Vasyam idam sarvam
--- ten tyakten bhunjithaha.
Thank you and Hare Krishna.
Your friend and humble servant,
Gadadhar Dasa
Original Text
From: "Nathan Zakheim" <zakheim@earthlink.net>, on 2/25/00 3:42 AM:
Dear Harinama das,
PAMHO, AGTSP!
So the ratio doesn't change?
That still means that for every fresh cow one must support 100 cows that
are dry, then all those donors protect cows, but get no milk.
At the Vrindaban Goshala, the price of milk DOUBLED due to the fact that
there were so few fresh cows and so many dry cows. THIS IS EVEN AFTER
THE DRY COWS ARE SYSTEMATICALLY GIVEN AWAY TO THE CHOWKIDARS WHO USE
THEM FOR (?).
Do you then say that the realized purpose of cow protection is not to
produce milk for everyone but to simply protect dry cows who do not
produce milk?
What about Srila Prabhupada's ideal of "one acre and a cow"? How is that
one cow kept fresh? Or is it just a pet?
There is really no point in attacking the Iskcon Cow Slaughterers until
this question is answered.
I fully assume that the Vedic Culture was able to manage cows profitably
and to produce milk products. The proof is that Nanda Maharaj paid his
taxes in milk products. If only one out of 100 cows were fresh, then
there would not have been enough milk for themselves, what to speak of a
surplus with which to pay taxes.
If all the cows were kept fresh all of the time, then the earth would be
quickly populated only with cows. If they are not all kept fresh at one
time, then the vast majority of cows would be "retired" from milk
production. (If only one calf per cow were born each year, then the
population of cows would double every year!
WHAT IS THE ANSWER?
Your eternal servant,
Nara Narayan Vishwakarma das
Hare Krishna Nara
Narayan Visvakarma das,
I know a devotee here Dayala Candra who was from the original Radha
Damodara bus program and who is very knowlegeable about cows. He says
that devotees who own cows for milk must keep buying more and more
pasture land according to need.
Therefore a continual supply of laksmi is necessary and for this a
continual supply of Krishna devotees must be made simultaneously
either full on, life members, or fringe to donate toward the cause of
Krishna's milk culture of sweet nectarean prasadam. You know the stuff
that makes the world go round.
By the way he is here in Hawaii on a farm taking care of 50 cows and
could use a helping hand.
Harinamdas
--------------------------------------------------
From: Noelene
Hawkins
niscala99@hotmail.com
Sent: 02 March 2000 23:02
Subject: One cow per acre per family
Dear Kesava Sakhi,
PAMHO, AGTSP.
Thank you for your concern for the plight of the poor cows in India,
and your realizations of the underlying causes. Have you read "Dung is
Gold Mine"? This would greatly benefit any attempt to protect cows in
India.
You say that at the beginning and end of their lives they are
unproductive, but you are wrong. They are still giving the most
valuable product - dung.
Due to the slaughter of old cows and bullocks - now we are finding out
by appallingly cruel methods - India is reaping the poison of a
shortage of dung in its "dung economy", and poverty, ill-health,
malnutrition, unemployment, declining soil fertility, increasing food
prices, housing shortages, social problems, fuel shortage, pollution,
deforestation, and massive flooding are just some of the results of
such a policy. Hard to believe except from a karmic viewpoint? DIGM
proves it ONLY through statistics and factual evidence. I think if
PETA has copies of DIGM to distribute along with their cause, they
will be more successful at digging out the root of the problem. DIGM
is on the ISCOWP website, if anyone would like to contact them. I
tried with no response, but I didn't mention DIGM. If anyone has
contact with them, this might be a way to help. I'd be willing to
donate, if necessary. Krsna consciousness is not possible without cow
protection, then how can we expect it to spread with such appalling
cruelty of our mothers preceding their slaughter. There must be no sin
greater. Anyway, maybe this is a good way we can help...
ys, Niscala.
Dung
is Gold Mine can be found
here
---------------------------------------------------
From: Noelene
Hawkins
niscala99@hotmail.com
Sent: 28 February 2000 04:00
Subject: Stand with Krsna
Best thing is
if devotees cut down the endeavor (save time for chanting etc.)
and grow their own needs, and as much as possible show how cow
protection is simple and stress-free life.
Yes, but how
realistic is it to live without monetary income in this society ?
Well, Prabhupada
seemed to think it was possible. Otherwise he would not have
instructed us to do so.
And where will
you get your money from, if you spent all the time growing
your own things
first of all where
is requirement for money if you are growing your own things?
there is cow
dung gas or just plain cow dung, both free if you are prepared to
collect it.
True, but will
you get all the energy you need from cow-patties only ? I'm just
looking at a bunch of considerations that come with a colder
climate. Tropic climate is whole other story.
Wood fires are very
energy efficient for both heating and cooking. Wood is free, too, if
you have some trees. No doubt is is harder, especially in Iceland!
Yikes! Good luck!
Dung digester
will help a lot, but how will you get one if you don't have money to
get one together ?
There is no
statement I made (I hope) that would indicate it doesn't take money to
set up. What to speak of dung digester there is the price of land. But
the aim as far as I can understand from Prabhupada's statements, is to
become free from dependence on money. To grow for one's needs and if
there is excess trade- that was his directive. How far we want to go
is up to us, or how far we are able to according to circumstances, but
to see if it could actually work completely wouldn't it be far out. To
prove it possible. Personally, I find the thought enlivening. I have a
friend who is buying some land in the next year and I will join her
and maybe some others and we will see how far on this path we can go.
Give us your blessings.
To be on this
conference might be a bit tough though. I wonder if we can design
a bullock-powered internet computer?
I thought about this
one and its probably that for my two cents worth, I'll save the
bullocks the trouble
Not a bad idea
if the computer is used to serve the cows' interest again... Then
their efforts are a worthwhile investment.
Or maybe ride
a horse once a week to the nearest one?
Yeah, and spent
a full day catching up with all the e-mail, and be late back for
milking. I think it will imply sacrificing such comforts if you
choose for a simple life. especially one where you have no monetary
income... I wonder if it will work...
No, it wouldn't,
you're right there, it wouldn't. Oh. well for now using a thorn to
pull out a thorn...
Niscala.
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Madhava Gosh (das)
ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@pamho.net
Sent: 19 March 2000 16:11
Subject: One VAD possibility
I am writing this
Gaura Pournima morning. Some portions are lifted from previous taxts,
which accounts for the lack of good flow. This is not meant as a
finished polished piece, more as a start to be made on this auspicious
day. Please excuse the obvious flaws in good writing technique and try
to see the concepts.
Before I woke this
morning, I had a dream that I remembered on waking. I dreamt I was in
India, and there had been a big flood along a river that had wiped out
all the bridges. There was a great sense of separation, of loss,
disruption, and an urgency to reestablish the bridges, yet the
materials in the old bridges had been completely washed away. There
were stone walkways and plazas, where the stones had been set
thousands of years before, carefully cut and set with a greatly
admired workmanship that had been used and were an integral part of
the patterns of life along the river. They were of a gray type of
granite, extremely durable.
The need for bridges
was so great, however, that permission was granted to pry these stones
from the ground and use them for rebuilding the bridges. The people
begin prying them from the ground, often lacking even tools and
working only with bare hands. The task of rebuilding was huge,
daunting, but, with applied energy, doable.
When I awoke, I
thought of the bridges as being the key portions of the old forms of
VAD that had been swept away in the flood of modern ugrakarma. The
stone walkways and plazas represented the portions of VAD that had
survived. The tearing up of old walkways was not seen as the
destruction of the old ways, but of the reconfiguring of them in ways
in order to rebuild the bridges that are so necessary for the survival
of the greater concepts, even if manifest in different forms than
historically recorded.
ONE VISION OF
VARNAASHRAM DHARMA (VAD) UNFOLDING IN MODERN TIMES.
Srimad-Bhagavatam
Canto 8: Chapter Twenty-four, Text 5 :PURPORT
Without protection
of cows, brahminical culture cannot be maintained; and without
brahminical culture, the aim of life cannot be fulfilled.
Srimad-Bhagavatam
Canto 1: Chapter Nineteen, Text ; :PURPORT
Cow protection means
feeding the brahminical culture, which leads towards God
consciousness, and thus perfection of human civilization is achieved.
These are only two
representative quotes from hundreds about the necessity for cow
protection in Srila Prabhupada's books. Largely, they have been
ignored in ISKCON, which is only to be expected, since ISKCON had it's
genesis in the belly of the beast of ugrakarmic culture. By the 1960s
, over 90% of the population of the US that Srila Prabhupada came to
had been either driven or lured from a connection to the land. Not
only were they disconnected, but they had been brainwashed to think
that lack of connection made them somehow more sophisticated or
advanced in material civilization.
A civilization based
on cow protection is going totally against the grain. So how to do
such a thing. Early attempts by ISKCON projects have been by and large
failures, with lots of breeding and no long range plan to deal with
unslaughtered animals. The nectar in the beginning of milk production
soon turned into the poison of undersupported overflowing barns of
nonproductive animals. Additionally, the reality of the lives of most
Western devotees is such that the romantic agrarianistic vision of
what VAD was is emotionally unobtainable. Even those who have a desire
to try, very quickly hit the hard economic realities of land
ownership, lack of an older generation to draw guidance from, and
harsh competition from agribusiness that maintains artificially low
prices subsidized by the blood of cows and the blood of the earth in
the form of oil.
So how to make a
situation where young idealists can get out on the land without
dissipating their youth just accumulating the capital necessary to get
there? How to connect devotees in urban circumstances whose realities
are such that they are most likely to remain in the cities? How to
build a society based on the principles of VAD when the historical
circumstances have been so radically changed? How to provide the
stable social environment for cow protection to flourish, thus meeting
the precondition necessary for brahminical culture to flourish?
The key thing is
establishment of Trusts to protect the cows and properties at the core
of a Krsna conscious community. Once things are held in Trusts, as,
incidentally, Srila Prabhupada ordered, then devotees stability can be
more assured. Most , if not all, successful enduring institutions, use
Trusts to ensure stability. Large donors are more apt to support Trust
type situations. These trusts could be separate from ISKCON, in the
sense that they will not be under the direct control of ISKCON per se.
I like the term Greater ISKCON, to start to develop a society centered
around Krsna but not necessarily under one legal umbrella.
ISKCON should, I
believe, evolve more along the lines of educational institutions,
another of Srila Prabhupada's instructions that has been pretty much
ignored. ISKCON centers would be places where people come to get
education of religious and hopefully also practical knowledge. Key
difference is that now, when devotees come to the temple, expectation
is that they have made a lifetime commitment, and when, as they
inevitably do, they leave, they are considered blooped. In the Srila
Prabhupada paradigm, they would be considered alumni, and treated as
valued potential contributors. Thus I see ISKCON evolving more as a
brahminical organization, with Deity worship, education, and community
counseling as their focus.
The vast majority of
devotees would move on , with blessings. Networks of devotee
businesses would hopefully work somewhat cooperatively and provide
employment opportunities for graduates. Others may move on and get
regular jobs in regular society, the cash economy. Most of these
devotees would be in urban environments, so how to be connected? They
could make donations to Trusts set up to protect cows.
While it is
indisputable that VAD is land based, I am not an agrarian romanticist.
One barrier to actually having more devotees on the land has been the
unrealistic expectations placed on them. Another of the either/or type
deals. However, material life is not about the actual attainment of
some idealistic situation, but rather the struggle, or endeavor to
attain such an ideal. As I hope to make a VAD cliché, it is not where
you are at, but the direction you are heading. Yes, there are city
dwellers who would be engaged in the cash economy. The method they
would be plugged into VAD would be by purifying the blood milk they
drink by paying into Trusts that own the land at the core of the
Greater ISKCON farming communities. Past experiences of throwing money
at farm projects that was used for operational expenses has not been
very successful. The donations to Trusts would be capital gifts,
the assets of which would be managed by Trustees. The trustees will be
the modern day ksatriyas
Facility would be
provided by the Trust so the young idealists who did want to get
directly onto the land, would be able to do so while still young,
instead of having to expend their peak productive years making the
money to get into the situations themselves. There would be an mix of
temple property, leased land, and private ownership. But it would
require a lot of initial capitalization, which is where those still in
the cash economy would be essential.
In the long term,
devotees on the farms would ideally be producing land based products
for sale to the city devotees, which would further stimulate the
agrarian economies, where often the hardest part of farming is not the
growing, but the marketing. Initially , however, the cash economy
devotees would continue to purchase from the agribusiness markets (
the de facto reality we have anyway).
As for the ISKCON
colleges, a minimal part of every devotees education would be at least
one summer spent in a rural community, either as part of a temple
program , or as an apprentice on a privately run devotee farm Even
though the majority of devotees will not stay on the farm, it
will give them an appreciation and a broader perspective.
Connection to the land is an essential part of VAD. For some, this
will be a direct connection, for most, it will be in the form of
retreats to farm communities, and by supporting financially the
Trusts that are expanding the land based economies.
Brahmanas show by
example. So two practical ideas how to stimulate all of this. One, for
two days each month, all brahmanas would eat only things grown by
devotees. If they have no connection for such things, then it would be
a water fast. As the connection grows, they could have all sorts of
things, no limitation, except that it be grown by devotees. Other
varnas would be expected to help make a nice arrangement for brahmanas
on those days, and to follow themselves as they feel inspired. This
would stimulate demand for devotee products. The other is that no
blood milk be allowed to be offered to any Deities. That if no
protected milk is available, the Temple would pay into a Trust an
amount over and above the financial cost of the blood milk, equal to
what it would have additionally cost to produce the protected milk.
This is typically 4 times blood milk market price. The eventual goal
would be that the Trust would be generating enough income to actually
buy real protected milk from devotee communities.
So, stay in the
city, make money, fund Trusts that subsidize devotee agriculture that
produces protected milk to offer to Krsna in the temples. Support
colleges that produce devotees that either move to the land, or stay
in the city, make money, fund Trusts that subsidize devotee
agriculture that produces protected milk to offer to Krsna in the
temples.
In this way, we have
brahmanas providing education, vaisyas generating capital and
agricultural products, and ksatriyas managing land for the benefit of
the other varnas. If all that is happening, lots of work opportunities
for sudras.
