MILK
NEW: Giving Up Commercial Milk Saves Cows?
From: billy bob buckwheat <d_4h@hotmail.com>
To: Cow (Protection and related
issues) <Cow@pamho.net>
Date: 11/29/2003 12:10:03
AM
Subject: Giving up on commercial
milk saves cows?
Syamasundara, HK, The main point
of this article on Chakra by what I received is that,.. Its just fine to buy
commercial dairy milk as long as we offer it to God, because the cows are
going to be killed anyway... ( So, why don't we help to perpetuate this...?).
I will say I don't agree entirely.
I can see that you may have
purified the milk and given the maker (the cow) some spiritual benefit...
but at the same time perpetuate the killing of her daughter.
When Ramachandara was on his way
to Sri Lanka, there is the pastime of building the bridge of stones to Sri
Lanka from South India. The stones were being brought by various entities,
of
which one was a small squirrel of some sort. Someone criticized his
efforts and then the Lord corrected the criticizer by claiming that even
though he is bringing insignificant stones, to our scale or calculation, he
is still involved in the eternal spiritual cause to purify. His stones,
though small, are an addition and very significant, but to his proportion.
Similarly one may "think" that the
population of Vegetarians or pious Hindu's (non-cow killers) are of a lesser
number in terms of the world. But If they were to privately and
unanimously boycott or refrain from having any dealings with the
purchase of
(slaughter-milk which is often and variously infused with foreign
substances and not very pure anyway) the number in liters or gallons in
demand of their milk would obviously have a significant decline. No
matter the measurement, this would be of great significance even if it were
to save 1 cow, which in this case would be thousands. Then simultaneously locate
a local dairy or fund
protected cows even if a bit of a distance to get your dairy needs. If none get a cow... If not possible, have someone send some dairy, if its not
possible, just remain abstinent until a further better situation arises by
your endeavors. Anything for the cause is what gets things done. like
the cooperation of the bees in a hive for their stores of honey.... This
would be the ideal... At the least buy it and offer it. If the greater number would
abstain or find pure alternatives the effect would be great.
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krsna is
explaining to Arjuna about various articles of foodstuffs to offer him with
love and he will except. This could be considered the ideal and in the mode
of goodness. He then in the next sloka says, Whatever you
take, works, do, eat, etc...at least offer them to me. We can see the rules are more
lenient and less of ideal, being a
second
degree from the first sloka. People who are more in passion or ignorance,
or
between a rock and a hard place while desperate would follow this one.
A great point to be made is that we are trying to purify.. not to remain
dirty.. or accumulate more Karma for our tongue or laziness.
From a story I heard if exact; Even when Krsna killed the demon in the form
of
a bull, the gopis wouldn't talk to him and they turned their backs. He then
bathed in all the various products of the cows.. Dust, dung, urine,
milk.....Even he needed the purification I guess..?? What to speak of us and he is
God... The point is not to be implicated in their slaughter, if you can
spare
yourself the karma and find another means of dairy, even if you think that
your insignificant 1 pounds or 1 dollars worth of milk from the ' Slaughter
barn' will not amount to much of a help to the perpetuation... IT HELPS....every penny.... every farthing... supports the cost, demand, and
perpetuation of such pirate's businesses. And so like the one who kills, the
one who packs, the one who transports, the one who sells, the one who buys,
the
one who eats, or supports in any way, is the same as the one who killed....isn't
that what is said?
Prabhupada had on his hands the burden of supplying milk for God in a
country
that he did not know. Using the sloka ' whatever you eat offer to me' most
likely. He strived for the Ideal and arranged farms with protected cows.
Now whatever matures from this 'should' be of the stance of
improvement. Like individuals taking on the responsibility of a cow and/or
to
eliminate to their power the cow slaughter or at least the help of it...
Keep a cow, or find an alternative.
I'm lucky, I have a family 3.5 miles away, from where I buy or trade for my
milk strictly. And if not, then not at all. There are others in the
community
who buy from the store. But it seems their numbers are noticeably
becoming
less being the pressure of the rest becoming more strict. This is a good
sign. Even there isn't enough to go around... It's pure.. and appreciated
even at its comparably higher price.
From: Syamasundara (das)
(Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK) <Syamasundara@pamho.net>
To: billybob <doctorox@pa.net>;
Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow@pamho.net>
Date: 12/10/2003 9:00:04
AM
Subject: Giving up on
Commercial Milk saves cows?
Hare Krsna, Derek-
Thank you for your letter and I am sorry about the delay in my reply.
To drink or not to drink? As you are well aware the availability of
protected milk is extremely limited or not available at all. In actuality to
avoid any involvement with the slaughter industry we would have to abstain
from all milk products. If our position is to avoid anything slaughter based
then we would have to ensure that all our household items are not bound with
any animal products. I have even heard that cow products are in car tires!!
(although I have never had it confirmed).
One of the reasons we cannot get protected milk is that the oxen do not have
any value. And as you know the tractor has replaced the oxen in farming
cultivation and the truck has replaced the ox for transportation and the
society structure is stretched over the whole country and thus the ox has no
value.
In order to give emphasis on the ox and thus avoid slaughterhouse
involvement we should avoid any foods that are not grown by oxen and indeed
we should perhaps avoid anything modern that is produced in deference to the
working of an ox. In other words if we want a position of non involvement in
animal slaughter it will require a complete life overhaul. As you will
remember Srila Prabhupada wanted the devotees to live a life of simplicity
based on the cows and oxen. For those who seriously want to avoid
slaughterhouse involvement it seems this lifestyle is the only remedy. Now
it seems in practice that persons seem to like the ideal of simple living
however they would prefer somebody else to live it for them.
For the vast majority of practitioners it would seem that the best practice
would be to be a devotee and offer all of their food and indeed everything
else to Lord Krishna otherwise without a doubt all their activities will
have some slaughter house implication and thus karmic reaction.
I do not think that devotees giving up on milk will actually help any cows
and I do not think it will help establish farm communities based on cow
protection. It seems to me that a better approach is that enunciated by one
devotee where individuals purify their milk by supporting cow protection by
paying the extra money they would be paying for protected milk.
I would value your comments on the above
Ys syam
From: <Ekabuddh@aol.com>
To: Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta
Manor - UK) <Syamasundara@pamho.net>; <doctorox@pa.net>; Cow (Protection and
related issues) <Cow@pamho.net>
Date: 12/15/2003 9:30:03 PM
Subject: Re: Giving up on
Commercial Milk saves cows?
I have been away from e-mail of late, however, just checked this one....
The question of whether abstaining from non-protected milk would be
beneficial prompted a panic in me. I feel that the economic implications of
this would do quite the opposite of what is intended. If there is no demand
for their milk (unprotected cows), then those relying on cattle, milking or
otherwise, to make a living, would see no alternative but to slaughter. It
is only common sense, it seems to me.
If I am a blacksmith, with a lot of iron on hand, but no one is using wagons
any longer, than I am forced to find another way to get money out of my
iron. Perhaps towel racks? If I have a herd of cows that I milk to pay my
mortgage, but no-one is drinking milk, what to do? Instead of milk I would
have to market hides and meat. My livelihood would be at stake. (pardon
potential pun)
So as suggested, the best course is to offer what we have to Krishna. If
there is possibility and incentive, than communities can be developed,
self-sustaining. But Prabhupada wanted preaching, not cloistering.
Self-sustaining communities would be great as teaching tools. They could be
designed in the fashion of Colonial Williamsburg, etc. As retreats. Not to
escape the world.
The world will not go away, we must work within it to the best of our
ability.
And help others to do the same. obeisances ekaB
From: Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad@ovnet.com>
> To: <Ekabuddh@aol.com>; <doctorox@pa.net>;
Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow@pamho.net>
Date: 12/15/2003 9:50:03
PM
Subject: Re: Giving up on
Commercial Milk saves cows?
>If there is no demand for their milk (unprotected cows), then those
relying on cattle, milking or otherwise, to make a living, would see no
alternative but to slaughter. It is only common sense, it seems to me.>
They are going to be slaughtered in any case, it is just a question of when.
Less demand = less breeding = less slaughter in the long run.
The only way dairy cows won't be slaughtered is if consumers pay the true
cost of maintaining a cow for its lifetime. Now the low price of milk is
subsidized by the inevitable slaughter of the cow for meat and leather, and
other by products of slaughter.
From: "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa
& Chaya Dasi - USA)" <ISCOWP@pamho.net>
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 10:30 pm
Subject: Re: Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?
It is short sighted to say that not buying milk products from the
slaughterhouse diary industry will accomplish nothing or that it will cause
great harm. As Madhava Gosh stated, all the animals in the dairy industry
are going to be slaughtered, it is just a matter of when. Eventually less
animals will be bred to supply the lessening demand for dairy products. As
far as the dairy farmers going into leather products on a long term basis; I
think they will not be able to compete with the low prices of the biggest
leather exporter in the world, India.
Just because we can not have the ideal supported by ISKCON and the
devotees, i.e. ox power agriculture, doesn't mean we can't take a stand that
is less complicated and not difficult to institute- abstain from milk
products from the commercial dairy as much as possible. At this point in the
movement it has been long enough to say that since we don't have the ideal of
ox power supported agriculture we need do nothing. That has been going on
for more than 30 years.
If one is worried about the image that devotees have due to taking some
position on cow protection; I can honestly tell you that we appear
hypocritical and with no backbone because we do nothing concrete nor take
any strong position. Lately, I have been contacted by several
persons in PETA for various reasons. These people are vegans for ethical
reasons. They do not have the philosophy we do, but they are willing
to commit to some abstinence, some austerities for the sake of a moral
issue. On the other hand, most devotees take no action and just go on saying
it won't make any difference if we abstain from commercial milk-just a drop in the bucket. And
the devotees have the perfect philosophy about cow protection.
In 1991 when we traveled with our oxen across the country we got to see
first hand for the first time how this lack of position affects the public
image of ISKCON and devotees. We were inundated with a supportive number of
young people (in their twenties). It was a Festival Of India event and these
people went around to look at the exhibits and talk to the devotees. They
then came back to us and had some problems with what they saw. They asked us
why were almost all the devotees wearing leather shoes (Burkenstocks) and
where did the milk products in the prasadam (foodstuffs offered to Krishna)
come from. We could only point to our own shoes which were not leather and
say that the movement was in a transition-moving away from supporting the
leather and dairy industries. That was now almost 13 years ago - devotees
are still wearing leather and the farms have been decreased-protecting less
cows, and commercial dairy products are used with the same excuses.
Madhava Gosh and others have presented the theory of giving a percentage
of the cost of dairy milk that is bought by a devotee to a cow protection
program. It is a good idea, but has not taken root. Maybe it demands too
much to do, i.e. figure the percentage, mail a check every month. Abstaining
is simple. At least deceasing the amount of intake of commercial milk
products. Or you can support outright your local cow protection
program, financially, offering labor, etc. Whatever you do, do something and
don't go on saying it is all right to go on buying milk products from the
dairy industry.
Any amount of so called kindness starts right here with having ACTIVE
compassion for the most vulnerable being who has no voice, can't make any
lawsuits - the cow. If we are not taking any ACTIVE position on cow
protection any attempts at kindness to other humans will prove shallow and a hypocrisy.
"The killing of cows by human society is one of the grossest suicidal
policies, and those who are anxious to cultivate the human spirit must turn
their attention first toward the question of cow protection."
SB 10.5.7 Purport
Chayadevi
ISCOWP Secretary
> More to Follow Soon
Real Price Of Milk
From: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)
ramprasad@com.org
Sent: 26 February 2000 03:05
Subject: Milk from a protected cow does a soul good
Note: so far nobody's responded to the questions
regarding Krishna's cowherding.
Has anyone noticed that Westbrae organic soy milk is $6.36/gallon at Trader
Joe's? Almond Milk is $7.56/gallon at Whole Foods?
Another issue to be addressed in regards to milk is the health issue.
"Extensive research" has shown the deleterious health effects of milk.
Has anyone read "The Argument Against Dairy Products" in Fit for Life? Fit
for Life describes how proteins and starches cannot be digested together
without great difficulty. In their second book, Fit for Life II, the
Diamonds say that their research has shown that tofu (a protein) is
digestible with starches. Because tofu is curd, one might presume that milk
curd could be eaten with starches. Does anyone KNOW anything about the
digestibility of dairy products with starches?
I think the tendency to enjoy dairy products is like the tendency of a man
to enjoy a young woman. We love cows when they're young and productive, but
we try to get out of the responsibility of caring for them when they're
older. "We are all trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but
we are becoming more and more entangled in her complex cities." Material
nature. The Latin word "mater" means "mother." As explained in Bhagavad-gita,
there is one purusa (person) who enjoys prakriti (material nature).
Unfortunately, when idiots like myself endeavor to enjoy that material
nature, they cause disturbances. Therefore, Krishna spoke the Bhagavad-gita,
and Srila Prabhupada translated it to remind us: "the essence of the
Bhagavad-gita is to try to satisfy Krishna's senses, not our own personal
senses."
In order to satisfy Krishna's senses, I believe we must look past the
immediate sense gratification of sex and food (eating & mating) and realize
the other side of the coin: austerity and compassion.
I should also mention that I'm all talk, but maybe my body will follow my
tongue.
Srila Prabhupada: "We're all going to hell for one reason." [He points to
his tongue.]
RPd
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 26 February 2000 13:59
Subject: Re: Milk from a protected cow does a soul good
Has anyone noticed that Westbrae organic soy milk
is $6.36/gallon at Trader Joe's? Almond Milk is $7.56/gallon at Whole
Foods?
That does reflect part of the cost of producing
organically on a small scale. And that is still from cow's that will be
slaughtered, most likely.
Another issue to be addressed in regards to milk
is the health issue. "Extensive research" has shown the deleterious health
effects of milk. Has anyone read "The Argument Against Dairy Products" in
Fit for Life? Fit for Life describes how proteins and starches cannot be
digested together without great difficulty. In their second book, Fit for
Life II, the Diamonds say that their research has shown that tofu (a
protein) is digestible with starches. Because tofu is curd, one might
presume that milk curd could be eaten with starches. Does anyone KNOW
anything about the digestibility of dairy products with starches?
Someone has written about that a good bit. I forget if
it was here (Hare Krsna dasi?) or maybe on Holistic Health. HH would be a
good place to ask that question.
I have done some extensive research on butterfat, but am too lazy to write a
paper as yet. Much of the down side of dairy products has to do with the way
they are consumed. Ghee in moderation (less than 2 tablespoons per day,
aggregate from all sources - one cup of whole milk has 2/3 of a tablespoon)
and low fat yoghurt, the traditional Indian village method of consumption,
is actually healthful. Over consumption, deep frying with the same ghee for
more than 30 minutes, consuming milk cold, all these things can be problems.
And reactions for eating too much just because it is artificially low
priced. At true prices, consumption will naturally be more limited.
If you want some background on fats following are a couple of links. The
saturated fat thing is what they use against butterfat, but the saturated
fats in butterfat are mostly short chain as opposed to the long chain fats
in meat. After you read these two articles, I can send you some more
papers.
Best overview article I have found on fats.
The Margarine Hoax -- trans fat and your health
This article is dated - much of what he is complaining about has already
been acknowledged, but some backwards folks still are only concerned about
total cholesterol count. Especially the purveyors of hydrogenated poly
unsaturates (trans fats) because the products do lower cholesterol but in
a bad way - increases lipoprotein (a). But I get ahead of myself.
The Cholesterol Myths - some astonishing facts
Srila Prabhupada: "We're all going to hell for
one reason." [He points to his tongue.]
I have been toning down my rhetoric about devotees
eating blood milk lately, but the old Madhava Gosh would have jumped in here
and heavily hacked on the topic given that opening. He would have said things
like
The way to a man's heart is through his stomach. The stomach nourishes the
whole body. Blood milk contaminates not only the consciousness of the
individual, but the societal body as well.
But I have mellowed out, so won't mention that line of reasoning today.
From: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)
ramprasad@com.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:39 PM
Subject: got milk?
Madhava, what's the fair price for ghee from a
protected cow?
I believe you told me that there are 2/3 of a Tablespoon/Cup of whole milk.
Does that mean that 3 gallons of milk (48 Cups) make 2 Cups (32 T.) of ghee?
At $10/gal, that's $30/2 Cups. 2 Cups = one pound, so $30/pound for ahimsa
butter?
Got butter?
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@pamho.net
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: got milk?
"WWW: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)" wrote:
Madhava, what's the fair price for ghee from a protected cow?
I believe you told me that there are 2/3 of a Tablespoon/Cup of whole
milk. Does that mean that 3 gallons of milk (48 Cups) make 2 Cups (32
T.)of ghee?
At $10/gal, that's $30/2 Cups. 2 Cups = one pound, so $30/pound for ahimsa
butter?
Got butter?
There is 4% butter fat average in milk by weight. For
homestead breeds like Jerseys, it can run as high as 6% or 3.5% for
Holsteins in full flow, but take 4 %. A gallon of milk weighs 8.6 pounds, I
seem to recall. Doing this by weight, because milk and butterfat have
different densities (which is why cream floats to the top). So
(1/(.04 x 8.6 pounds)) x $10 = $29.41
So yes about $30 per pound for ghee if we assign no value to the skim milk
or buttermilk, and pay nothing for the value added of skimming the cream and
making the ghee. Does the skim milk equal the value of the labor to convert
the cream to ghee? That would depend on a lot of variables. then there is
the cost of a container.
Another way to look at it is if we take that protected milk is selling for
about four times the cost of regular milk, what is the market value of of
regular ghee? Never buy it but does $6 a pound sound right? 4 x $6 = $24 a
pound. That would include container cost times 4, so maybe down it a little,
say the ghee was cheaper than $6, call it $20.
So it seems reasonable the price would be between $20 to 30.
Personally, I have no protected ghee, but we do sell ghee that the profits
from go to the cow protection program at New Vrindaban, so I feel it is
okay.
Should you be willing to pay that premium, for protected ghee, I could hook
you up with a devotee in New Vrindaban who milks an old cow by hand that I
buy my yoghurt from - he may have ghee.
My premise for the long run though, would be that devotees could buy in the
market, then donate the differential to Cow Protection programs.
