Dear Prabhus
Continuing our discussions on ISKCON land use
Free land rent for cow protectors.
1. Maintaining goshala oxen. Assuming somebody wants to work land with
oxen from an existing goshala, then they should get the necessary land
to maintain the oxen without any rent. In the Uk that would be about 2.5
acres (assuming 0.5 acres for grain). Any further land use would require
some token rental arrangement.
2. First and second year of use no rent required to get started.
3. Farming equipment could be rented from the goshala at a reasonable
rate, thus taking away the burden of high start up costs for the
prospective ox-powered farmer.
4.In some scenarios it may be better to have housing dealt with
separately from land. Land use is bound by agricultural practice.
Housing is bound by ownership and/or rental policy. As a village
develops some of the residents will not be strict HK's, thus the village
space should be clearly not part of the visitor areas. It is a private
space. A space the larger communities should allocate for especially
those who are contributing to the agricultural and cow protection areas.
5. If ISKCON can give a livelihood base and a house for its members then
it is more likely to succeed in getting land based industries off the
ground. This can be achieved by very liberal housing policies and
practically give away land rent.
6. As the agricultural sector becomes successful then the rent can be
adjusted to a win win scenario in consultation with the land holders and
the ministry of Agriculture and Cow Protection. Right now ISKCON should
be super generous and supportive of the land based devotees.
Some more thought for deliberation
ys syamasundara dasa
_________________________________________________________
From: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)
talavan@com.org
Sent: 19 February 2000 20:25
Subject: Can we get back into this discussion
[Text 3027363 from COM]
On 17 Feb 2000, Syamasundara das wrote:
Dear Prabhus
Continuing our discussions on ISKCON land use
Free land rent for cow protectors.
1. Maintaining goshalla oxen. Assuming somebody wants to work land
with oxen from an existing goshalla, then they should get the
necessary land to maintain the oxen without any rent. In the UK that
would be about 2.5 acres (assuming 0.5 acres for grain). Any further
land use would require some token rental arrangement.
Comment:
There is no need for house land to exceed 1 acre, it should be purchased
outright not rented or leased. In ISKCON it has been ascertained that
unless it belongs to one person (family) it will not be taken care of
properly. On this one acre is situated the family home, storage sheds
(incl. livestock) and a family garden. Land for agricultural use should
all be leased with payment coming as produce or equivalent, produced
according to season. Pastures you would graze communally with your
neighbors and individual could lease crop land solely or in common with
others. This view is based on the description Srila Prabhupada has given
of village life, using the terminology of western land use.
2. First and second year of use no rent
required to get started.
3. Farming equipment could be rented from the goshalla at a reasonable
rate, thus taking away the burden of high start up costs for the
prospective ox powered farmer.
4.In some scenarios it may be better to have housing dealt with
separately from land. Land use is bound by agricultural practice.
Housing is bound by ownership and/or rental policy. As a village
develops some of the residents will not be strict HK's, thus the
village space should be clearly not part of the visitor areas. It is a
private space. A space the larger communities should allocate for
especially those who are contributing to the agricultural and cow
protection areas.
Comment:
From management level I get this kind of feedback they see housing and
agricultural lands as separate. Housing they would prefer to sell or
give in exchange for services rendered; whereas for agricultural lands
they would prefer to lease for a season or a defined period of time.
5. If ISKCON can give a livelihood base and a
house for its members then it is more likely to succeed in getting
land based industries off the ground. This can be achieved by very
liberal housing policies and practically give away land rent.
6. As the agricultural sector becomes successful then the rent can be
adjusted to a win win scenario in consultation with the land holders
and the Ministry of Agriculture and Cow Protection. Right now ISKCON
should be super generous and supportive of the land based devotees.
Comment:
I agree with you with the exception that those who are the recipients
should give some service in return otherwise they will not appreciate
the advantages they have been given.
The deity should be seen as the owner of the temple land, true He maybe
represented by some management board acting in His interest and on His
behalf. By setting up an agricultural lease system and giving produce or
equivalent cash will instill in the user that he is the servant of the
Lord. And is this not the function of Varnasrama to gradually elevate
its constituent members 'back to Godhead'?
Ys, Rohita dasa
____________________________________________________________
From: Mangal Artika (Dasa) HDG (Washington - USA)
mikep@localaccess.com
Sent: 28 February 2000 05:58
Subject: Can we get back into this discussion
There is no need for house land to exceed 1
acre, it should be purchased outright not rented or leased. In ISKCON
it has been ascertained that unless it belongs to one person (family)
it will not be taken care of properly. On this one acre is situated
the family home, storage sheds (incl. livestock) and a family garden.
Ys, Rohita dasa
All Glories to your service Rohita:
You would need at least two acres to put a house on because of the
constraints of the septic system and the well in fact if my memory is
still right it is required in MS by the health dept. for that reason, I
know we have squeezed them on one before but it was a difficult
situation and everything must be placed just right to achieve that and
sometimes that is not always possible.
Mangala Artika Dasa
P.S. Keep up the good work Ro.
______________________________________________________________
From: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)
talavan@com.org
Sent: 28 February 2000 20:45
Subject: Can we get back into this discussion
There is no need for house land to exceed 1
acre, it should be purchased outright not rented or leased. In
ISKCON it has been ascertained that unless it belongs to one person
(family) it will not be taken care of properly. On this one acre is
situated the family home, storage sheds (incl. livestock) and a
family garden.
Ys, Rohita dasa
Mangala Artika Dasa:
You would need at least two acres to put a house on because of the
constraints of the septic system and the well in fact if my memory is
still right it is required in MS by the health dept. for that reason,
I know we have squeezed them on one before but it was a difficult
situation and everything must be placed just right to achieve that and
sometimes that is not always possible.
Comment:
I can not accept that, in Bay St. Louis there are many lots all under an
acre in size, some of them use septic others are connected to the sewage
system. Also it appears many on this conference are leaning toward
compost toilets which by-passes the problem all together. In the case of
layout being insufficient for septic than I say delete that thought and
use compost toilet or equivalent.
Also, I presume you are thinking of the proximity of the well to the
septic and the house as per Govt. standards. I was thinking of a village
setup where the following takes place - say you use septic - temple lays
out the land with emphasis on agricultural use of land. Marginal type
land that is suitable for septic is chosen, a road layed and plots (1
acre in size) layed out along the road. A well is secured in a central
location with pipes to all lots. Say the well serves ten plots, now
comes the advantages of this plan,
1. The land you farm you can lease from the temple, you only need land
for your home and associated structures. (presume 1 ac. cost is 3,000,
this is a lot cheaper than say 40 acs. 120,000.) Maybe you will lease
grazing land and some cropland - payment in % of produce.
2. The cost and maintenance of the well is repaid to the temple by
splitting expenses by 1/10th. (3,000 for well and distribution lines)
cost to individual 300. That is presuming that the village is made-up of
ten family units.
3. Same for the road. 5,000 for village, 500 for individual.
4. Each house has to put in its own septic. 1,000 or a government
approved waste disposal system.
5. Each house can be built by that owner or the temple can construct a
basic unit that the individual can modify as need requires.
Cost of setup (house excluded) 4,800 instead of 128,000 [120,000 (home
estate and farmland) + 2,000 (well) + 5,000 (1/2 mile of road) + 1,000
(septic)]. A savings of 80,000, which should cover the cost of barns and
house. That is a bargain to get land and utilities for less than 5,000.
Sure you have neighbors that are close, you do not have to associate all
the time with them, and you can have their dwellings separated from you
by hedge and tree rows. If you want these people can be like your
extended family.
This is a lot better than asking for the temple to give you - you are
grhastra and you are asking the temple to support you! Give you house
and land free no charge - mostly likely you will only abuse the gift. If
you have to pay for it, even though it is at a reduced cost, then you
will appreciate it and use it with greater wisdom.
Ys,
Rohita dasa
__________________________________________________________________
From: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)
Hare.Krsna.dasi@pamho.net
Sent: 01 March 2000 05:21
Subject: Prabhupada: 5 Acres of Land
There is no need for house land to exceed 1
acre, it should be purchased outright not rented or leased. In
ISKCON it has been ascertained that unless it belongs to one person
(family) it will not be taken care of properly. On this one acre is
situated the family home, storage sheds (incl. livestock) and a
family garden.
Ys, Rohita dasa
All Glories to your service Rohita:
You would need at least two acres to put a house on because of the
constraints of the septic system and the well in fact if my memory is
still right it is required in MS by the health dept. for that reason,
I know we have squeezed them on one before but it was a difficult
situation and everything must be placed just right to achieve that and
sometimes that is not always possible.
Mangala Artika Dasa
P.S. Keep up the good work Ro.
Unfortunately, I don't have the Vedabase on this
machine -- or the varnasrama manuscript. [I use 3 different computers
and only one has the Vedabase - frustrating!]
Anyway, I believe that there is a conversation between Srila Prabhupada
and Allen Ginsberg, Columbus, Ohio, May 1968. In that conversation,
Srila Prabhupada tells Allen Ginsberg that a person can be
self-sufficient on 5 acres of land.
I know that sometimes in other contexts, Srila Prabhupada mentions
figures like one acre, but it seems to me that the figure of 5 acres
sounds the most reasonable for a temperate climate. More land is needed
for two reasons:
1. Since the animals can't graze year round (unless you are a master
grazier, like some of those Alberta farmers), you need to have extra
land to raise alfalfa, corn, hay and grains, to help feed them through
the winter.
2. You need extra land to provide for firewood heat for the winter.
The final consideration has to be that if we are seriously trying to
attract a young man to set up a self-sufficient residence on the land,
we have to make it attractive enough that he will see some future in it
for his children as well as himself. I don't think you'll get many
qualified candidates if you only offer 1 acre. That is not enough for a
householder, especially in a cold climate. I think Prabhupada's
quotation of five acres will have a much better chance of attracting
someone who will stick with it.
Could someone please look up that quote for me? Thanks very much.
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
________________________________________________________________
From: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)
talavan@com.org
Sent: 01 March 2000 20:16
Subject: Prabhupada: 5 Acres of Land
There is no need for house land to exceed
1 acre, it should be purchased outright not rented or leased. In
ISKCON it has been ascertained that unless it belongs to one
person (family) it will not be taken care of properly. On this one
acre is situated the family home, storage sheds (incl. livestock)
and a family garden.
Ys, Rohita dasa
All Glories to your service Rohita:
You would need at least two acres to put a house on because of the
constraints of the septic system and the well in fact if my memory
is still right it is required in MS by the health dept. for that
reason, I know we have squeezed them on one before but it was a
difficult situation and everything must be placed just right to
achieve that and sometimes that is not always possible.
Mangala Artika Dasa
P.S. Keep up the good work Ro.
Unfortunately, I don't have the Vedabase on
this machine -- or the varnasrama manuscript. [I use 3 different
computers and only one has the Vedabase - frustrating!]
Anyway, I believe that there is a conversation between Srila
Prabhupada and Allen Ginsberg, Columbus, Ohio, May 1968. In that
conversation, Srila Prabhupada tells Allen Ginsberg that a person can
be self-sufficient on 5 acres of land.
I know that sometimes in other contexts, Srila Prabhupada mentions
figures like one acre, but it seems to me that the figure of 5 acres
sounds the most reasonable for a temperate climate. More land is
needed for two reasons:
1. Since the animals can't graze year round (unless you are a master
grazier, like some of those Alberta farmers), you need to have extra
land to raise alfalfa, corn, hay and grains, to help feed them through
the winter.
2. You need extra land to provide for firewood heat for the winter.
The final consideration has to be that if we are seriously trying to
attract a young man to set up a self-sufficient residence on the land,
we have to make it attractive enough that he will see some future in
it for his children as well as himself. I don't think you'll get many
qualified candidates if you only offer 1 acre. That is not enough for
a householder, especially in a cold climate. I think Prabhupada's
quotation of five acres will have a much better chance of attracting
someone who will stick with it.
Could someone please look up that quote for me? Thanks very much.
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now?
Prabhupada: Yes. And you'll forget everything. You'll be fully Krsna
conscious.
Allen Ginsberg: We have a farm also now in upstate New York. There we
have vegetarian table also in the farm. We have a cow, goats. But...
Prabhupada: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and
four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start.
He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have)
one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four
acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the
factories will be closed.
Comment:
Prabhupada is using four acres as an example, not that everywhere four
acres is what is needed. It depends on the carrying capacity of the
land. For example with unfertilized land in Mississippi (Hancock Co.)
the figure is 10 acres for one season (summer - 180 days), per cow. If
you practice rapid rotational grazing (after about 6 years you can build
up the soil by this process) then there is sufficient fertility to
maintain 6 animals on one acre (during peak production time April -
July) and less according to production of forage.
I tested this out here during a three year period starting on four acres
of our most productive land. I grazed four milking cows (during the peak
season they averaged 30 gallons - 7.5 gallons each per day) and
additional 15 cows. It is important that you follow the rapid rotational
grazing practices. That comes out to 4.75 cows per acre, I was unable to
carry this to the six years as the temple wanted to grow a garden on
this land.
Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?
Prabhupada: Four acres.
Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.
Prabhupada: That I am instructing Kirtanananda, to show this example in
New Vrindaban.
Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres?
Kirtanananda: I hope so.
Prabhupada: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head?
Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota, which is flat,
very fertile, very rich land.
Prabhupada: Where it is? Which province?
Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking with a poet
who also is a fellow sadhana, whose family is from that area for many
generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself
has 160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently
160 acres is not enough to support a farm economically because farming
is done now in such large scale with machines.
Kirtanananda: You can use those machines if you want. If you want to
live in the so-called American style, that is so. But if you're willing
to adopt the Vedic way of minimizing the material needs in order to
pursue Krsna consciousness, what does one need? He needs sufficient food
to keep the body healthy and a place to lay down. So four acres is
plenty.
Comment:
As I was pointing out one acre of land for house and associated
features. Then you lease from the temple the land that you farm. Say a
thirty year lease with your heirs having first option to take up the
lease. Seasonal payment based on the use of the land payment coming at
harvest season or daily in the case of the cows. Cows you graze on
communal land owned by the temple, person utilizing the common pasture
giving a percentage of daily production. Those grazing oxen are to spend
a portion of the animals working hours working on temple land or
according the needs of the temple.
By the village style of housing units and the leasing of agricultural
land all needs can be met. You will have a faction of initial startup
costs, taxes only on one acre. Fifty percent of the produce must be
donated to the temple/Deity (ksatriyas/brahmins - taxes included here)
twenty five percent you personally use as you need and twenty-five
percent goes toward savings as per the direction of Rupa Gosvami.
Allen Ginsberg: Where do you get the... How do you feed the cow, or
would you?
Kirtanananda: On four acres you can do it.
Allen Ginsberg: You can get enough hay for a cow, for...?
Prabhupada: Fodder. Yes. We grow.
Guest: On food, it depends on what part of the east?
Allen Ginsberg: He's a farmer.
Guest: Whereabouts? What part? Cause a cow has to have about three acres
for grazing.
Kirtanananda: So at most five acres. It's in that vicinity.
Allen Ginsberg: See we are interested in this problem of minimizing.
Prabhupada: So let us cooperate.
Allen Ginsberg: And doing organic farming and minimizing the effort and
also the material demands.
Kirtanananda: You can grow sufficient vegetables on a fraction of an
acre.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. We had a big vegetable garden this year, too. I've
been doing farming... Peter has been doing a great deal of farming.
Hayagriva: How are you tilling your land?
Guest: We have a friend who comes out with a plow.
Allen Ginsberg: You're doing it by hand?
Kirtanananda: We just got a horse.
Hayagriva: We just got a horse. We had bad experience with a rotary
tiller. We got rid of it.
Kirtanananda: West Virginia. We gave it away.
Allen Ginsberg: So we're also going through a coovy(?) äçrama for poets.
A little farm for poets.
Prabhupada: Yes. Farming, agriculture, that is nice. There is a proverb:
agriculture is the noblest profession. Is it not said? Agriculture is
noblest, and Krsna was farmer, His father.
Allen Ginsberg: The cow.
Prabhupada: Cow, yes. And in Vedic literature you'll find, a man is...
Richness of a man is estimated by the possession of grains and cows.
Dhanyena dhanavän. If he has got sufficient quantity grain, then he's to
be... Formerly, even still in India, when a daughter is offered to a
family, they will go and see how many morais(?) there are. Grain stock.
If he sees that he has five, six, big, big grain stock, then he can...
"Oh, this is nice house." You see? "They can feed." So in India still,
the arrangement is that every family has got at least two years grain in
stock. You see? And cow at least one dozen. No economic problem. And
actually, that is the fact. You keep cows and have sufficient grains,
whole economic problem solved. Eating. And sleeping, you can take some
wood and four pillars. Of course, in your country it is not...
Comment:
Four pillars; no meat eating, no gambling, no illicit sex (sex for
procreation solely) and no intoxication. You have place to eat and
sleep, work to engage your body so you are not idle and fall into mäyä.
Allen Ginsberg: It's very cold.
Prabhupada: Very cold. (laughing) India, all the year they are lying on
the flat sky.
Kirtanananda: But still, it is very simple. We also experimented with
that. You can build a nice shelter very... for ten, fifteen dollars.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, it depends. You see, where we are we're twenty
below.
Kirtanananda: Well, we have pretty near that in West Virginia.
Allen Ginsberg: In Minnesota gets thirty, forty, sometimes, below.
Kirtanananda: There has to have sufficient wood sawed up.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupada: Formerly, in Europe they were also living.
Allen Ginsberg: Man lived this way for 20,000 years, 30,000 years until
the 19th Century.
Prabhupada: So we have to live that. Plain living, high thinking. The
necessities of this bodily existence, that should be minimized and not
unhealthy. Healthy. To keep oneself fit. But the time should be
utilized-develop Krsna consciousness, spiritual life. Then his whole
problem is solved.
Comment:
So to buy the land for housing the sole requirement being the four
pillars, the prerequisite for leasing agricultural land is that you can
show the ability to make the land productive. Thus your material
requirements maybe met and you have time to take up spiritual practices
of hearing and chanting. All very simple, now if you want air
conditioning and keeping car etc. you will need a higher income - means
longer working hours and more entanglement, then best you not engage in
this KC.
Ys, Rohita dasa
______________________________________________________________
From: Dirk Vansant (Geel - B)
Dirk.Vansant@pamho.net
Sent: 01 March 2000 23:36
Subject: Prabhupada: 5 Acres of Land
I think Prabhupada's quotation of five acres
will have a much better chance of attracting someone who will stick
with it.
You're right there...
______________________________________________________________
From: ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)
ISCOWP@pamho.net
Sent: 05 March 2000 19:12
Subject: Can we get back into this discussion
Dear Prabhus,
PAMHO. AGTSP.
I think our discussion last ended with Rohita Prabhu suggesting that a
village concept for housing and land would be best. Like the village
concept in India. This meaning that the housing would be together in one
area, shared well facilities and sewage etc. Some land would be communal
but each farmer would have his land. I believe in one description by Dr.
Mody in our ISCOWP Newsletter it was described that grazing land was
communal, each farmer had his own plots, housing was together with
shared facilities.
The question is, is this really possible in our Western world? Americans
especially are very independent minded. The country was founded by
independent pioneering types with a lot of land to tame. There is also
the problem in India now that there is not enough land for each farming
family because they keep dividing it up amongst their descendants and
since they didn't have a lot to begin with they have not enough now.
I think that which way we all decide to go: village vs individual will
determine the rest of the discussion and enable us to finer tune #4.
So what does everyone think? Village housing or housing on separate
plots of land? Agricultural land separate from the house or with the
house? Or should we be thinking of two separate concepts: one for the
west and one for the east?
The following is the broad scope outline of what we have. I figure we
take a point at a time to finer tune it. Like, next we could discuss
free rent or payment with produce, then how much? But first lets stick
with village vs independent .
Free land rent for cow protectors.
1. Maintaining goshala oxen. Assuming somebody wants to work land with
oxen from an existing goshala, then they should get the necessary land
to maintain the oxen without any rent. The land needed can be assessed
by the carrying capacity of the land in each area. Any further land use
would require some token rental arrangement.
2. The devotee who would be eligible for this must provide evidence of
adequate training and experience.
3.The first and second year use of the rest of the land (besides what is
used to maintain the oxen) will have no rent required to get started.
4. Farming equipment could be rented from the goshala at a reasonable
rate, thus taking away the burden of high start up costs for the
prospective ox powered farmer.
5.In some scenarios it may be better to have housing dealt with
separately from land. Land use is bound by agricultural practice.
Housing is bound by ownership and/or rental policy. As a village
develops some of the residents will not be strict HK's, thus the village
space should be clearly not part of the visitor areas. It is a private
space. A space the larger communities should allocate for especially
those who are contributing to the agricultural and cow protection areas.
6. If ISKCON can give a livelihood base and a house for its members then
it is more likely to succeed in getting land based industries off the
ground. This can be achieved by very liberal housing policies and
practically give away land rent.
7. As the agricultural sector becomes successful then the rent can be
adjusted to a win win scenario in consultation with the land holders and
the ministry of Agriculture and Cow Protection. Right now ISKCON should
be super generous and supportive of the land based devotees.
8. There needs to be some type of periodic review board for the first
couple years, so that the community can make sure that this is actually
someone they want in this position. Much easier to take care of things
through a regular, pre-announced process than when a community decides
they don't like someone, and then they have to devise weird social or
political reasons to get him out. Best to have a regular, above-board
review system. After say 3 years, perhaps the farmer can be granted some
kind of tenure so that he is confident that he has a fairly permanent
land base.
your servant,
Chayadevi
______________________________________________________________________
From: Ananda Maya (dd) SDG (Derrylin - UK)
Ananda.Maya.SDG@pamho.net
Sent: 05 March 2000 22:24
Subject: Can we get back into this discussion
Haribol prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP
Sorry about the lack of response, but basically I'm playing catch-up
with the whole discussion because of issues relating to these very
points. Anyway without going into all the details and difficulties here,
I am very concerned about the tenure of lands. The reason being I'm
looking at very difficult situations here based on everything currently
being discussed. With extremely limited sized farms, as ours is, and
with the cow lands put into trust, we would have allotment sized parcels
left, having had some sold off. The reality is that although
presentations were made about agricultural activity when applying to
buy, or rent, we have yet to see any movement in this way. Some people
tend to say that it has taken more time to do this and that, so I think
three years may be open to debate depending on the size of farm. We have
a limited few acres, not even five, but as yet at least four people
saying they will farm this and that crop - but nothing. And having the
review body has done no good, my husband, who is the only one growing
for a long time, has resigned because he couldn't take it anymore! And
he's the chief cow herd, the land guy, and the one who sat at meetings,
talked to devotees, agreed things in conjunction with the other parties
only to hear via the grapevine that the others had 'a change of
heart/mind' after the meetings.
So I think the time frame has to be taken strongly into consideration.
Land left idle or dug up for building works, but not being cared for or
worked agriculturally by a devotee should realistically not be given
such a long probationary period. If someone is enthusiastic to work the
land, it shouldn't take three years, and when they do, the extended
long-term tenure should be linked into several other factors such as
relationships, attitude etc. I'm not sure about the bigger places and
the arguments about the not so much full-time HK devotees or their not
so full time heirs in the future. The size of the project is really a
factor. Certainly if there are thousands upon thousands of acres, but in
a small farming project it causes problems. If we wanted to live like
that, we wouldn't come to this place, nor rear our families here. If
someone is favorable, they can yearly rent allotments, but I have
reservations about long-term commitments with those not sincerely trying
to follow cent per cent. Otherwise we should encourage farming in the
wider community sense whereby they can donate produce from their own
place, if nicely grown. I have seen the arguments about the reality of
unworked land etc. but size is a factor. One devotee who is really
enthusiastic and sincere will work effectively on a larger plot than any
amount of wannabe agriculturists but not necessarily fully committed
devotees.
I realize that many out there, more and less experienced, will differ
from this opinion. But given the nonsense that we have to put up with, I
think it's valid that I state my point.
If anyone out there knows how to fix problems with hard disks that Scan
disk says it fixed but didn't give me a shout. Otherwise I'm finding it
hard to keep in touch due to computer problems and time constraints
here.
ys
___________________________________________________________________
From: Noelene Hawkins
niscala99@hotmail.com
Sent: 06 March 2000 03:46
Subject: Can we get back to this discussion
Dear Chayadevi,
Are these ideas for a particular farm, something you're organizing
or helping with, or general rules/ideas for ISKCON farms? If it is the
latter, it seems too specific. For instance in countries like our own,
we are planning to do it- set ourselves up in self-sufficiency by going
on social security until we are set up enough and paid off the land
enough, to be able to get by without it. That's what devotees in
Australia do to set themselves up, because social security is so easy to
get- just proof of a low income is enough. Anyway, it factors into a lot
of schemes we have here and you might find that also in countries where
gov't assistance is easily available, it is a big factor.
Once the land is paid for, we plan to do without rent, so its not
rent actually its mortgage repayment. Then all equipment will be shared,
there will be no cost to use it. Anyone, non-devotee can come and help
work the land in return for cabin-accommodation. Devotees will be the
permanent residents, though.
We can't get a lot of devotees interested, but we figure as they see its
a nice life they may join in. Best if there's no economic pressure, just
rent until the land's paid off.
That's the idea of one farmer I know, who is already on his land plus
my friend who will be soon.
If you can get gov't assistance till the land is paid off, less pressure
is there, then such assistance should not be necessary down the track a
bit when we're set up to face the challenges of going wholly
self-sufficient.
Anyway, its applicable here, might be applicable in some other
countries
too.
ys, niscala.
______________________________________________________________
From: Ann Fletcher
ann@akn.quik.co.nz
Sent: 06 March 2000 23:25
Subject: Re: Can we get back to this discussion
Dear Niscula,
I was dismayed to read your recent comments on your idea of "self
sufficiency". Your idea of just claiming social security is totally the
opposite to the true meaning. Srila Prabhupada was very much against
this dole bludging mentality. It is poisonous to the mind and soul. Self
sufficiency means just that. Looking after ones self and taking
responsibility for ones own actions (or inactions). To create ones own
resources rather than rely on everyone else's. At the end of the day, $
has to be created from somewhere and us taxpayers get fed up with people
who expect it to come from our hard work. You may have great intentions
to stop claiming once you get set up, but the reality is that if its
easy to claim, then why stop? This mentality seems to breed through into
our second and third generation devotee mood and is very insidious to
stamp out.
Self sufficiency to be NOT DEPENDENT on others.
Your servant,
Ananta Krsna Dasi.
Dear Chayadevi,
Are these ideas for a particular farm, something you're organizing or
helping with, or general rules/ideas for ISKCON farms? If it is the
latter, it seems too specific. For instance in countries like our own,
we are planning to do it- set ourselves up in self-sufficiency by
going on social security until we are set up enough and paid off the
land enough, to be able to get by without it. That's what devotees in
Australia do to set themselves up, because social security is so easy
to get- just proof of a low income is enough. Anyway, it factors into
a lot of schemes we have here and you might find that also in
countries where gov't assistance is easily available, it is a big
factor.
Once the land is paid for, we plan to do without rent, so its not rent
actually its mortgage repayment. Then all equipment will be shared,
there will be no cost to use it. Anyone, non-devotee can come and help
work the land in return for cabin-accommodation. Devotees will be the
permanent residents, though.
We can't get a lot of devotees interested, but we figure as they see
its a nice life they may join in. Best if there's no economic
pressure, just rent until the land's paid off.
That's the idea of one farmer I know, who is already on his land plus
my friend who will be soon.
If you can get gov't assistance till the land is paid off, less
pressure is there, then such assistance should not be necessary down
the track a bit when we're set up to face the challenges of going
wholly self-sufficient.
Anyway, its applicable here, might be applicable in some other
countries
too.
ys, niscala.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pancaratna ACBSP
Pancaratna.ACBSP@pamho.net
Sent: 24 April 2000 05:32
To: Cow (Protection and related issues)
Subject: Re: Gopalitics
Can you refer (For the Resource Index for
the Standards) to any resources on how to set up such trusts. If
the devotees are interested perhaps they can get some more
detailed information on what it takes to set up a trust. Of course
a lawyer would be the final need, but it would be good to know
what trusts are about before seeking a lawyer.
Yrs,Chayadevi
This is where we need the help. Really, it
is more an accountant to set them up. Someone needs to do some
definitive research on it, and it isn't going to be this dumb
farmer. Either there is interest in it or not. I will share what I
know with a sincere interested party, but I have thrown this out too
many times already to waste anymore time on trolling with it.
I've been off the Cow protection conference for
a few months, due to time constraints. Now I am going through the
texts I missed.
Trusts are handled differently in different countries, so I doubt
there are any simple formulas. I could give all the necessary info for
setting up trusts in INdia.
I will be in the US in July and expect to be doing some work like this
for my family. If no one gives you the info by then, I volunteer to do
it in July.
Your servant,
Pancaratna das
