Does that mean anything to anyone?
From what little I have learned, we are going to have to lime the land. Also
it seems that we will need Nitrogen, and Phosphorous.
We have started making compost, but it will be months before it is ready.
You cant buy compost here, so fish meal seems to be the only answer to put
some goodies in the ground for hungry crops.
We did just receive 10lbs of Dutch white clover seeds. Say I plant some
tomato, onion / garlic, (these are good companions with Tomato, as they
protect from fusarium) and say some red kidney beans in a raised bed, with
some partially composted cow manure would that be good? Later, when these
crops are up somewhat, I could sow some clover. Will the clover make
nitrogen available to the other crops, immediately (or in a short time)?
The clover is a perennial. Does that mean it will keep springing up after it
is cut? Can I leave it, and when I want to plant the next crop, just cut it
back, and let it spring up as a live mulch? To do that I would assume that
the clover will take longer to recover than the newly planted crops would
take to grow. Dutch clover grows to about 12 inches.
Could I grow this clover in some of the beds first, before anything else,
and then expect that it is going to nitrify the soil, so much that I need
not add other conditioners like fish meal (apart from the lime of course)?
After our land was cleared of tea, a good amount of the top soil was pushed
to one side, still stuck to the tea roots. These roots were piled up about 8
feet high, and up to 12 feet wide around the edge of the land, mostly in the
forest edge. There are also many random boulders in the pile each weighing
anything up to several tons. So that top soil wont be easy to reach, at
least not till the tea plants have broken down somewhat. Also the soil on
the land, was churned up to dig out many of these large boulders. So in many
places top soil and sub soil have been mixed. We are just plodding through
this land, making raised beds, and sieving out the stones. It takes us about
three days to make a 100 square foot bed like this (one bed each, every
three days).
As the soil is all churned up it is very difficult to separate the sub from
the top soil. So our beds are kind of mixed like that. Is that going to be a
problem? I think we are getting mostly top soil, but often it appears that a
lot of sub soil is also being mixed in. I have been reading that a lot of
the nutrients in sub soil are good, and that deep rooted plants can bring
these nutrients up. So it crossed my mind that this sub soil if it is well
mixed with compost, will be good.
Any comments will be gratefully received.
Your Servant
Samba das
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 13 January 2000 15:54
Subject: Re: Fish Meal & Going to hell etc.
[Text 2928395 from COM]
Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again.
Today's question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen
and phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities and
have to go to hell?
Some people will say so. I don't have a clear understanding of why. Is the
fish meal whole fish that has been harvested specifically for fertilizer?
Then I can see not doing it. Is it by products of slaughter that will end up
in the landfill if not recycled as fertilizer? personally, I am not so sure
that should be a problem, but I am open to opinions.
There is a fish market near us, that all the byproducts of slaughter are
neatly bagged up and sent to the landfill. If you go in and ask, they will
give them to you. Personally, I have never done it, and have no desire to,
but I don't know why in theory it should be a problem. It is there
regardless if I were to use it or not.
I remember you saying you didn't want to use grass clippings from a race
track because of the chemicals in the grass, a wise choice. What happens to
the stable litter? Is someone else already getting that?
We just got our soil test, and the results are
thus.
Does that mean anything to anyone?
From what little I have learned, we are going to have to lime the land.
I would say definitely lime, unless there is some other local practice for
raising soil acidity. Otherwise, you should be thinking about crops like
strawberries and potatoes that will do okay in lower pH soils. Even regular
agricultural lime can take a year or so to have an effect. The quicklimes
are a little tricky to use, be careful if you go that route.
Also
it seems that we will need Nitrogen, and Phosphorous.
We have started making compost, but it will be months before it is ready.
You cant buy compost here, so fish meal seems to be the only answer to put
some goodies in the ground for hungry crops.
We did just receive 10lbs of Dutch white clover seeds. Say I plant some
tomato, onion / garlic, (these are good companions with Tomato, as they
protect from fusarium) and say some red kidney beans in a raised bed, with
some partially composted cow manure would that be good?
In that low pH, without the steer manure, you won't do much at all.
Later, when these crops are up somewhat, I could sow some clover. Will
the clover make nitrogen available to the other crops, immediately (or in
a short time)?
It forms nodules of nitrogen on the roots that become available after the
plant decomposes.
The clover is a perennial. Does that mean it will keep springing up
after it is cut? Can I leave it, and when I want to plant the next crop,
just cut it back, and let it spring up as a live mulch? To do that I would
assume that the clover will take longer to recover than the newly planted
crops would take to grow. Dutch clover grows to about 12 inches.
I have never seen anyone do this successfully, planting right into the
clover. How will you do weed control in the clover itself? Please do this as
a side experimental type deal first before making a strong commitment to the
method. Some clovers may not do well in low pH soils.
Could I grow this clover in some of the beds
first, before anything else, and then expect that it is going to nitrify
the soil, so much that I need not add other conditioners like fish meal
(apart from the lime of course)?
IF I were to use it as a green manure, I would be thinking about red clover,
which is a coarser growing clover that will grow in lower pH soil. It is
when you plow it down the nitrogen becomes more available.
As the soil is all churned up it is very difficult to separate the sub from
the top soil. So our beds are kind of mixed like that. Is that going to
be a problem?
Bulldozer is quick but extremely crude. Yes, it is a problem, but you can
correct it over a few years by addition of lots of organic matter. Top soil
is essentially sub soil mixed with organic matter. It takes a lot. I have
built numerous gardens over the years. If you add a lot of organic matter to
the soil, it takes about 3 years before you start to notice a difference in
soil structure. that is adding about 2-4 inches deep of finished compost per
year. By the 4 year the difference starts to be dramatic. Of course that is
in the Temperate zone where for 1/2 the year the ground is cold and idle. In
the tropics, it could happen faster. that is also where we have heavy clay
soils. Sandy soils will show a quicker response.
From: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)
Hare.Krsna.dasi@bbt.se
Sent: 13 January 2000 18:46
Subject: Re: Fish Meal & Going to hell etc.
[Text 2928618 from COM]
Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again.
Todays question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen and
phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities and have
to go to hell?
We just got our soil test, and the results are thus.
Does that mean anything to anyone?....
I wish that Vyapaka prabhu would step in on this one. As an organic farming
certifier, I'm sure that he knows exactly what it means.
What you really need is a book called **The Soul of Soil** by .....Smilie?
and Joyce Gershuny. My husband gave me a copy for Christmas. This is a
stupendous book. I know that Vyapaka has recommended it also.
I don't have time to tell you much about it right now, but it contains every
thing about this kind of information. It is so clearly written and easy and
engaging to read.
Don't start your varnasrama college without it.
Also, speaking of books, I ordered a copy of **The Carbon Connection** on
interlibrary loan. Forget that one. The man who wrote it may have understood
who he was talking about, but his presentation was completely
incomprehensible. I could not make head nor tail of it.
Too bad he didn't have a spiritual master when he was young to advise him,
"You are very intelligent about farming techniques, but your knowledge will
not be very productive for the world unless you marry a woman with an MA in
English to help you translate your ideas in to language that others can
understand."
Anyway, **Soul of Soil** would help you a lot to understand this. Also, I
know Vyapaka could help you. I don't have his address handy or I would add
him to this post. But possibly he's reading and will reply anyway.
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
From: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)
Janesvara.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 14 January 2000 14:11
Subject: Re: Fish Meal & Going to hell etc.
[Text 2930595 from COM]
Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again.
Today's question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen
and phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities and
have to go to hell?
We just got our soil test, and the results are thus.
Does that mean anything to anyone?....
I wish that Vyapaka prabhu would step in on this one. As an organic
farming certifier, I'm sure that he knows exactly what it means.
The following may of some help.
Soil pH is the traditional measurement of the intensity of the acidity (or
alkalinity) of your soil. A pH below 7.0 is acidic. A pH above 7.0 is
alkaline. pH is measured in a soil/water paste made with distilled water. It
is very useful as an index of relative acidity, but does not by itself
predict lime requirement with great accuracy. Optimum pH level is 6.0 - 7.0
for home gardens. Ideal pH is 6.0 for all turf. The optimum soil pH for
potatoes is 5.5 to 6.0.
Lime index is a pH measurement taken in a buffered solution which has been
allowed to react with the soil's acidity. It is used to measure the total
exchangeable or reserve acidity in the soil. It can be thought of as a
simulated liming of the soil to measure it's response to a lime application.
The lime index, together with the current soil pH measured in water, is used
to accurately calculate the quantity of soil acidity to be neutralized and
the lime application necessary to raise your soil pH to the optimum level
for the crop you plan to grow. In the past, lime index was called "buffer
pH".
Pounds per acre extractable Phosphorus (P) is an index or scale for
determining phosphorus availability. It is not a direct measure of plant P
uptake, but corresponds directly to the amount of phosphorus that plants
will be able to take in from this soil over the next growing season. The per
acre estimation assumes a 6-2/3 inch plow layer or rooting zone. Most soils
have about the same capacity to hold and supply phosphorus, so test levels
are reported on a pounds per acre basis only. The optimum level for most
garden crops is from 20 to 40 pounds per acre (0.5 to 1 lb per 1000 sq. ft.)
or the equivalent on a smaller area. Any phosphorus test level over 40 lb
per acre is considered excessive.
Pounds per acre exchangeable Potassium(K), Magnesium(Mg), and Calcium(Ca) is
an index or scale for determining the availability of these three nutrients
over the next growing season. As with the phosphorus level, the pounds per
acre estimation assumes a 6-2/3 inch plow layer or rooting zone. The
available portion of these three nutrients are held by the soil and are
taken into plants as positively (+) charged particles called cations. The
optimum level of these nutrients depends very much on the ability of the
soil to hold these cations. This will be explained in more detail next.
Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) is an estimation of the soil's ability to
hold cations. It is a measure of the total amount of negative (-) charge in
the soil. Since opposite charges attract, these (-) charged sites in the
soil hold the (+) charged cations. CEC varies according to soil texture,
organic matter content, and pH. The (-) exchange sites hold most of the
available potassium, magnesium, and calcium in the soil as well as
exchangeable or reserve acidity (mostly aluminum).
The CEC which appears on the report form is not directly measured. Instead,
it is estimated by converting the exchangeable Ca, K, Mg, and acidity levels
found to equivalent amounts of (+) charge. All the (+) charges can then be
added together. The sum of the (+) charges is assumed to equal the net (-)
charge or CEC of the soil. Soil charges are expressed in terms of
milliequivalents per 100 grams of soil (me/100 gm). In most soils, the net
negative (-) charge or CEC will increase as the pH is increased. Because of
this it is necessary to take into account the change in CEC after a
recommended lime application. CEC is estimated at a projected pH, which
varies depending on the crop to be grown. This projected pH or pH management
level is explicitly stated for your crop in the first line of the Laboratory
Results section. Because of this variation in nutrient holding capacity, a
single soil can have two entirely different CEC estimates if recommendations
are requested for two crops with different optimum pH levels.
From: Radha Krsna (das) ACBSP GB (Great Britain)
Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB@bbt.se
Sent: 16 January 2000 20:25
Subject: Re: Fish Meal & Going to hell etc.
[Text 2935147 from COM]
**Soul of Soil**
Any more details about this title, please.
From: Bhuta-bhavana (Dasa) ACBSP (Sandpoint ID - USA)
aryan@uswest.net
Sent: 16 January 2000 23:15
Subject: Re: Fish Meal & Going to hell etc.
[Text 2935331 from COM]
**Soul of Soil**
Any more details about this title, please.
Amazon.com has a few titles with "Soul of Soil".
What author?
The Soul of Soil : A Soil-Building Guide for Master Gardeners and Farmers ~
Usually ships in 2-3 days
Joe Smillie, et al / Paperback / Published 1999
Our Price: $13.56 ~ You Save: $3.39 (20%)
The Soul of Soil; A Guide to Ecological Soil Management
Grace Gershuny, Joseph Smillie (Contributor) / Paperback / Published 1996
Our Price: $16.95 (Special Order)
From: Kanti (dd) ACBSP (Florida - USA)
Kanti.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 18 January 2000 01:42
Subject: Re: Fish Meal & Going to hell etc.
[Text 2938624 from COM]
Amazon.com has a few titles with "Soul of Soil".
What author?
The Soul of Soil : A Soil-Building Guide for Master Gardeners and Farmers
~
Usually ships in 2-3 days
Joe Smillie, et al / Paperback / Published 1999
Our Price: $13.56 ~ You Save: $3.39 (20%)
The Soul of Soil; A Guide to Ecological Soil Management
Grace Gershuny, Joseph Smillie (Contributor) / Paperback / Published 1996
Our Price: $16.95 (Special Order)
Another good source for books on the net is
http://www.bestbookbuys.com It
provides comparision pricing from about 10 different book stores. Some of
the stores sell second hand books as well so there can be real savings. yhs,
Kanti dasi
From: billy bob buckwheat
d_4h@hotmail.com
Sent: 05 February 2000 02:29
Subject: dung
[Text 2988469 from COM]
We just got our soil test, and the results are thus.
>
> pH P K OM% ExCa ExMg CEC
>
> 5.3 21 0.36 8.622 200 130 11.3
>
>Does that mean anything to anyone?....
>
>Your Servant Samba das
I don't know if this will help but I talked with a
person last summer, whom was qualified to tell you all about that stuff. So
we were in a garden which needed some help, looking over some of the vegies
he was mumbling different ingredients the soil was depriving the plants.
Because of some of the names of the ingredients, It didn't seem that
people,( to say,) 200 years ago probably couln't get or maybe didn't need or
used something simular but more easier to find. So I asked and he simply
said to just put cow manure in the soil and that it has all the needed
nutrients. the fresher and wet, the better. Maybe could help some of your
thoughts.
yr servant Derek, GN OX PRO, Gita Nagari
From: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)
Samba.SDG@bbt.se
Sent: 07 February 2000 04:00
Subject: dung
[Text 2992924 from COM]
I don't know if this will help but I talked with
a person last summer, whom was qualified to tell you all about that stuff.
So we were in a garden which needed some help, looking over some of the
vegies he was mumbling different ingredients the soil was depriving the
plants. Because of some of the names of the ingredients, It didn't seem
that people,( to say,) 200 years ago probably couln't get or maybe didn't
need or used something simular but more easier to find. So I asked and he
simply said to just put cow manure in the soil and that it has all the
needed nutrients. the fresher and wet, the better. Maybe could help some
of your thoughts.
Great! Thanks.
I love these simple solutions. Cow Manure is all I can get anyway, but its
great to know that its all I need.
You know, there is one other simple miracle, and that is neem. if any of you
folks can grow it, you should. I have been using a commercial neem
preparation as a pesticide (it doesnt kill directly, it just stops the bugs
from eating and laying eggs, it doesnt affect the good bugs at all!) I am
growing neem so I can eventualy stop purchasing the commercial stuff.
Our wonderful Nimai (Lord Caitanya) was born under a neem tree, and it realy
is a miracle tree. Apart from its pesticide properties, it is used in
numerous medicines, and the cake from the crushed seeds, increases crop
yields amazingly.
The Lord is so kind to have given mankind Cows and Neem, so simple, and so
usefull.
YS Samba das
