Is it possible for "a virgin cow" to give milk?
May I read about it in any book or better on any Website?
Thank you in advance for your comments and answers.
Ys, Sevabhiruci das
From: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)
talavan@com.org
Sent: 12 May 1999 23:51
Subject: Milk from a virgin cow?
[Text 2312789 from COM]
Pamho. AgtSP!
Is it possible for "a virgin cow" to give milk? May I read about it in
any book or better on any Website?
I have seen a cow who was rather old (12) produce
milk without calving when another cow had a calf. But have not heard of a
heifer (virgin cow) being able to produce milk as you have inquired about
and I have been around cows for about 40 years.
ys,
Rohita dasa
From: Tulasi-priya (Devi Dasi) SDG (?)
tulasipriya@com.org
Sent: 13 May 1999 15:47
Subject: Milk from a virgin cow?
[Text 2314649 from COM]
I have seen a cow who was rather old (12)
produce milk without calving when another cow had a calf. But have not
heard of a heifer (virgin cow) being able to produce milk as you have
inquired about and I have been around cows for about 40 years.
I have heard of men lactating when their nipples are
sufficiently stimulated, so perhaps it's possible for a heifer.
From: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)
talavan@com.org
Sent: 14 May 1999 00:20
Subject: Milk from a virgin cow?
[Text 2315755 from COM]
I have heard of men lactating when their
nipples are sufficiently stimulated, so perhaps it's possible for a
heifer.
Comment:
Heifers do this also but there is not enough to feed to a calf. The
purpose behind this is to keep the udder lubricated and free from disease.
To milk such animals is an unnatural thing and should be avoided in the
end it will cause stress to the milking system of the animal. This fluid
is not really milk it is more like colestrum with a small amount of
antibodies and a higher percentage of iron and other minerals. It is
generally, in a healthy state, more watery and not so viscid.
ys, Rohita dasa
From: WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS -
USA) talavan@com.org
Sent: 30 November 1999 15:09
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2819788 from COM]
On 30 Nov 1999, Ann Fletcher wrote:
Dear Niscula Prabhu,
Re your math's regarding milking of cows. We had a great system at New
Varshan and you may remember when I was milking, grhastas would leave
their containers out. I had a monthly account running. I kept detailed
daily records of the milkers analyzing effects on production from
weather, feed scraps, seasons etc. The milkers all had covers on in the
winter and I feel we looked after them well. However, none of them ever
milked for longer than 1 1/2 years to any significant amount. My
experience is with Friesians, Jerseys and Shorthorns. What breed are you
basing your math's on for cows to be milking for 4 years continuously
without calving again? This math's needs to be worked on "the norm"
rather than one extreme case. ( And how many liters daily in the fourth
year?) When choosing a breed, consideration also needs to be looked at
the average age that a breed lives for, the suitability of the bullocks
and conditions of the property. Please check your source of information
for your calculations and let me know of the surabhi breed that milks
for 4 years.
Your servant, Ananta Krsna Dasi.
Comment:
I have milked Freisland (Holstein), Jersey, Guernsey, Swiss and crosses of
the above with Gyr/Kankrej. Have never under feeding conditions ranging
from excellent to poor, temperature range of 20' - 110'F have I been able
to get production of greater than 1 gallon (~3 liters) past the two year
mark.
ys,
Rohita dasa
Coastal Mississippi
From: Ann Fletcher
ann@akn.quik.co.nz
Sent: 29 November 1999 23:26
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2818065 from COM]
Dear Niscula Prabhu,
Re your math's regarding milking of cows. We had a great system at New
Varshan and you may remember when I was milking, grhastas would leave
their containers out. I had a monthly account running. I kept detailed
daily records of the milkers analyzing effects on production from weather,
feed scraps, seasons etc. The milkers all had covers on in the winter and
I feel we looked after them well. However, none of them ever milked for
longer than 1 1/2 years to any significant amount. My experience is with
Friesians, Jerseys and Shorthorns. What breed are you basing your math's
on for cows to be milking for 4 years continuously without calving again?
This math's needs to be worked on "the norm" rather than one extreme case.
( And how many liters daily in the fourth year?) When choosing a breed,
consideration also needs to be looked at the average age that a breed
lives for, the suitability of the bullocks and conditions of the property.
Please check your source of information for your calculations and let me
know of the surabhi breed that milks for 4 years.
Your servant, Ananta Krsna Dasi.
From: Noelene Hawkins
niscala99@hotmail.com
Sent: 30 November 1999 02:35
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2818336 from COM]
Dear Niscula Prabhu,
Re your math's regarding milking of cows. We had a great system at New
Varshan and you may remember when I was milking, grhastas would leave
their containers out. I had a monthly account running. I kept detailed
daily records of the milkers analyzing effects on production from
weather, feed scraps, seasons etc. The milkers all had covers on in the
winter and I feel we looked after them well. However, none of them ever
milked for longer than 1 1/2 years to any significant amount.
Were your milking cows getting high-grade feed at milking time? Our cows
here regularly give milk for 3-4 years. No doubt at the end it is only a
small amount. I think I remember the milking lady saying only a couple of
liters a day. My point is that even a couple of litters a day is enough
for drinking! If you have 4 cows milking on a farm with 8 families, then
if they are bred at one per year, then they are all at different levels of
milk production. But the TOTAL should be enough for milk consumption AND
ghee production, etc.
From: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)
Hare.Krsna.dasi@bbt.se
Sent: 30 November 1999 19:59
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2820530 from COM]
Noelene Hawkins wrote:
[Text 2818336 from COM]
Dear Niscula Prabhu,
Re your math's regarding milking of cows. We had a great system at New
Varshan and you may remember when I was milking, grhastas would leave
their containers out. I had a monthly account running. I kept detailed
daily records of the milkers analyzing effects on production from
weather, feed scraps, seasons etc. The milkers all had covers on in the
winter and I feel we looked after them well. However, none of them ever
milked for longer than 1 1/2 years to any significant amount.
Were your milking cows getting high-grade feed at milking time? Our cows
here regularly give milk for 3-4 years. No doubt at the end it is only a
small amount. I think I remember the milking lady saying only a couple
of liters a day. My point is that even a couple of liters a day is
enough for drinking! If you have 4 cows milking on a farm with 8
families, then if they are bred at one per year, then they are all at
different levels of milk production. But the TOTAL should be enough for
milk consumption AND ghee production, etc.
I remember that when Mother Kaulini at Gita-nagari was milking Visaka
(Brown Swiss) Kaulini was still getting 3 gallons a day from Visaka after
3 years. Unusual, but it shows that with good feeding, good care -- and
suitable climate, it is possible. I was still getting at least 1 gallon a
day from Prema Vivahla (also Brown Swiss) after 2 years. That's probably
more normal.
I think Niscala is touching on an important point here. If among, for
example, 4 families, each family breeds its cow in a different year, that
would provide different qualities of milk which they could distribute
among themselves. Perhaps the freshest cow could provide the hot milk, and
the one currently on the longest lactation could provide milk for curd.
Cooperation among the families with regard to the breeding schedule could
make things work very well.
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan -
USA) Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 30 November 1999 01:18
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2818226 from COM]
Please check your source of information for
your calculations and let me know of the surabhi breed that milks for 4
years.
Your servant, Ananta Krsna Dasi.
I have known several Jerseys to milk for years without coming fresh
yearly. they gave 1 to 1.5 gallons daily, depending on season and feed.
Balabhadra has a cow that looks just like a Holstein, although smaller
than the common agribusiness size. He is getting even from this Holstein
at least one half gallon a day, and it has been a long time since she came
fresh, more than a year.
To keep high yields, it is necessary to freshen cows yearly but for simple
homesteading, the heritage breeds will give good milk for a long time.
Certainly not on a competitive level , but adequate for a householder with
just a couple of yogurt customers and his own family.
From: Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK)
Syamasundara@bbt.se
Sent: 01 December 1999 19:11
Subject: Milking duration
[Text 2823272 from COM]
At Bhaktivedanta Manor we are currently milking 7
cows. All at different stages of lactation. One cow which we have
reimpregnated and will calf in 2 months has just been dried off (last day
today). We were milking her, her calf, her calf's calf and her calf's calf
has impregnated two cows. A total milking time of up to 6 years. Before we
started drying her off she was giving 3.5-4 liters of milk each day. She
is a Friesian.
We recently lost an old 18yr old cow who had milked for 6 years. On her
last milking year she was giving 3 litres per day. She was a Friesian.
Another cow (a shorthorn) is still milking after 4 years. She is giving 4
litres per day. We had a cow that milked for 8 years (she never even had a
calf although was impregnated) giving 5 litres per day in her last year.
She was a Friesian.
My limited experience has definitely shown that the vast majority of cows
can give milk for 4 years quite easily. We do however have a cow (half
Belgian Blue) that started giving a small yield and dried off herself
within 3 years.
ys
syamasundara dasa
From: Noelene Hawkins
niscala99@hotmail.com
Sent: 01 December 1999 22:57
Subject: Milking duration
[Text 2823785 from COM]
Hare Krsna dasi wrote:
I think Niscala is touching on an important point here. If among, for
example, 4 families, each family breeds its cow in a different year, that
would provide different qualities of milk which they could distribute
among themselves. Perhaps the freshest cow could provide the hot milk, and
the one currently on the longest lactation could provide milk for curd.
Is there any reason for this? Are the ones on longest lactation providing
lower quality milk, so that milk is best for curd? If we are to produce
ghee, all the milk should be skimmed? Jerseys are good for
self-sufficiency as they give really creamy milk, its about one-quarter
cream! When I was churning butter, we didn't want to waste one drop of
milk in any shape or form. So curd was only made if we could use all the
whey, and after churning the butter, the buttermilk we'd turn into curd,
rather than the milk which was a more drinkable product, and able to be
used for making yogurt. Then the whey from the buttermilk curd, we used in
making rice, because actually whey is very good for you, it is full of
protein and calcium, in fact health shops sell whey powder as a
body-builder!
Cooperation among the families with regard to the breeding schedule could
make things work very well.
Especially in regards to ghee-making. If your cow is only giving 1 or 2
liters a day, how can you gather enough cream to make butter- churning
worth-while? This is another reason why family owned farms, i.e. one
family on a farm, would find it difficult to be self-sufficient and not
overbreed. Another reason is that if you're only breeding one cow every 3
or 4 years, being only one family and not wishing to overbreed, (if you're
sensible and not heading for disaster), then it may be on average a 6-8
year gap in between births of bullocks (oxen). Then how can you train such
different size bullocks together? But on a larger property, with breeding
of on average one per year, for 4 families, then you get them only 2 years
apart on average, which makes it possible. Or for an even larger property,
say twice that size, with one per 6 months, you'd get them on average 1
year apart. So it seems a shame that devotees after having tried to
influence the management of ISKCON farms towards simple living, give up
and buy their own- it has happened to more than one family I know, plus a
few others are in the process of doing it. Because on your own, apart from
the problems mentioned above, where is the support of other devotees,
sadhu-sanga, and the support of the other varnas for practicality. Where
most importantly is the ksatriya to provide you with FREE land in return
for some of what you produce, so you don't have land repayments, be forced
to cash-crop or give up dependence on bullocks, use the tractor instead,
because the focus must be profit? Or give up sadhana, to get the time to
grow enough with the bullocks, and market it, just to make repayments?
Sorry to repeat what I have mentioned in other
letters, actually Carol's idea is good. If you're stuck in that system,
being on your own farm with repayments, and you still want to only use
bullocks, then to grow HERBS which only requires a small amount of
cultivation, would seem to be the way to go for a cash-crop. Especially
high-priced medicinal herbs in big demand like echinacea. So I hope I'm
not mistaken for some sort of fanatic, but it just seems to me that there
is a lot of drawbacks to family owned farms- milk product supply,
availability of compatible bullocks, land repayments, availability of
other varnas to assist, availability of a gurukula, availability of
sadhu-sanga, or even someone the kids have to play with, some friends,
because if they're deprived of that their whole life, they may become
bitter about it later on...
your servant,
Niscala dasi
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 01 December 1999 16:25
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2822860 from COM]
I think Niscala is touching on an important
point here. If among, for example, 4 families, each family breeds its
cow in a different year, that would provide different qualities of milk
which they could distribute among themselves. Perhaps the freshest cow
could provide the hot milk, and the one currently on the longest
lactation could provide milk for curd. Cooperation among the families
with regard to the breeding schedule could make things work very well.
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
The scheme they are trying to work towards at NV is that a cow be bred and
milked in the temple barn for the full of the flush, then after a year or
so it would go out to a family. When breeding is resumed, the idea would
be to bred about 5 cows a year for the temple, which would result in a
stabilized herd size of under 100 animals (compared to the 200 currently
and the 350 at the peak.)
Hopefully, an endowment will be in place so each calf born will have a
guarantee of lifetime support. The temple will have a good flow of milk,
and in exchange for caring for a cow, the householder would have a cow
that could provide it ample milk for several years. If a cow could be
expected to milk one gallon a day for 3 years, that means at any given
time as many as 15 families could have a producing cow, which is more than
are willing and able to take them now. Hopefully Krsna will send such
willing and able householders.
The choice of semen will be milking shorthorn, as they are one of the more
homestead type breeds that are available through AI, with good
characteristics for oxen. NV has 2 bulls, but one is a Holstein and the
other a Holstein/Simmental cross, neither of which they want to bred with.
Years from now, when they pass on, their facilities will hopefully be
occupied by a homestead breed bull so
they can get away from the AI.
From: Ann Fletcher
ann@akn.quik.co.nz
Sent: 02 December 1999 02:24
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2824140 from COM]
Interesting to see your comments on preference for
the Shorthorn breed. After years of trial and error, we have also
concluded at New Varshan (NZ) when we start breeding again, we will bring
the Shorthorn back in. Good milk supply, excellent working bullocks and
their average age is 15 years.
Your servant, Ananta Krsna Dasi.
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 02 December 1999 05:43
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2824362 from COM]
Ann Fletcher wrote:
[Text 2824140 from COM]
Interesting to see your comments on preference for the Shorthorn breed.
After years of trial and error, we have also concluded at New Varshan
(NZ) when we start breeding again, we will bring the Shorthorn back in.
Good milk supply, excellent working bullocks and their average age is 15
years.
Your servant, Ananta Krsna Dasi.
Not meant that there aren't possibly even better heritage breeds for some
one to think about, but the Milking Shorthorn seems to one of the better
choices of the easily available breeds.
Jerseys are great milkers, but the bulls are reputed to be extra vicious,
and our own experience with a Jersey bull confirmed that (named Bu, rest
his soul). The 2 oxen I did train (oh so long ago) were Jerseys, and they
were mellow enough, but the Shorthorn are reputed to make better oxen.
From: (Bhakta) Dirk Vansant (Geel - B)
Dirk.Vansant@bbt.se
Sent: 04 December 1999 19:19
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2831069 from COM]
Balabhadra has a cow that looks just like a
Holstein, although smaller than the common agribusiness size.
I thought she was a Holstein and definitely looks like one. The thing
smaller about her then the 'regular' Holstein might be her milk bag and
super gentle and sweet nature.
but adequate for a householder with just a couple of yogurt customers
hahaha... he who is actually tasting the nectar...
From: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)
Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP@bbt.se
Sent: 06 December 1999 16:09
Subject: Re: milking duration.
[Text 2836025 from COM]
"COM: (Bhakta) Dirk Vansant (Geel - B)" wrote:
[Text 2831069 from COM]
Balabhadra has a cow that looks just like a Holstein, although smaller
than the common agribusiness size.
I thought she was a Holstein and definitely looks like one. The thing
smaller about her then the 'regular' Holstein might be her milk bag and
super gentle and sweet nature.
but adequate for a householder with just a couple of yogurt customers
hahaha... he who is actually tasting the nectar...
And it is nectar :-)
She is smaller in overall stature. The gene pool of modern Holsteins has
definitely been narrowed to large size and large production. She is a bit
of an anomaly.
From: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)
Hare.Krsna.dasi@bbt.se
Sent: 21 February 2000 04:13
Subject: Gita-nagari's Visaka: 8 year lactation!
[Text 3029929 from COM]
On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, billy bob buckwheat
wrote:
A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This
cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life.
When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down
and used as food products.
Thank you for writing and caring.
Ben & Jerry's
Hare Krsna dasi comments:
B&J states here that a cow give milk for 9 months and dries out for
3.
This is not a given. This is entirely a management decision that they
make in managing their breeding for their herd. A cow could give milk
for 2 or even 4 years, depending on the situation. However, it is a
smaller quantity of milk, and it is of a different quality, so
probably would not be good for ice cream.
Hypocrisy and commercialism go hand in hand -- especially with the
dairy industry.
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
I don't know exact time but Visakha has been milking for about 8 years
with out beeing freshened. She presently gives about 10-15pds in the
morning and 8-10pds in the evening. magic mamma .
yr servant, derek,
GN OX PRO, Gita Nagari
Bhakta Derek Prabhu--
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
That's amazing -- after 8 years, Visaka is still giving up to 25 pounds of
milk per day -- that's 3 gallons or maybe 12 liters.
Such a wonderful cow. I still remember before she had her first calf back
in 1989 or so, Sri Krsna said we should massage her udder so that she
would be used to having people touch her udder. Such a very nice
temperament. A daughter of Vrndavana the bull, I believe. Who was her
mother? What a great cow -- Brown Swiss.
Is Mother Kaulini still milking her also? Please give my regards to
Kaulini.
********************
Sometimes people think that they don't want a Brown Swiss because the
Brown Swiss are so big and require so more food and more pasturing ground
than a smaller cow.
But perhaps their economic assessment fails to take all factors into
account.
At 3 gallons per day for the past 8 years, how many thousands of gallons
of milk has Visaka produced?
And that is with just one calf to train and pasture.
Another cow, who is smaller, might have had to be bred 3 or 4 times to
produce an equal amount of milk. And would have produced 3 or 4 calves,
which probably would have required more feed and more pasturing ground
than Visaka's one calf.
For the average ISKCON farm, we don't really need so many calves, because
we at present don't have so many devotees who know how to train and work
them.
So, it seems to me that the number of calves per quantity of milk produced
-- in other worlds the total quantity of milk over the course of each
lactation -- is a very important factor to consider in deciding the
quality and breed of the cow to be bred.
It's not the only factor. And in some cases, especially where there are
trained devotees who want to work as many oxen as possible, it might be
better to breed a cow who will produce less milk per lactation. But in
general, I think that milk-production-per-lactation is an important
consideration which is too often disregarded altogether.
Again, Bhakta Derek, thanks for telling us about Visaka. A great news
update on one of Lord Damodara's great cows!
your servant,
Hare Krsna dasi
